Vegan Gains vs Destiny

Welcome destiny, so I guess the way this all got set up, with somebody on twitter, tweeted at both of us and asked us if we would be interested in having like a debate or discussion on veganism and I wasn’t sure like what your stance on this whole topic was and like I said sure? I’m down with having a debate or a discussion with you about veganism and from what you posted on twitter it looks like you’re mostly or like halfway convinced about the whole like ideological principles of veganism so like I’m sure you know okay good idea I’m sure you understand my whole side of this whole thing I think the animal agriculture industry is completely enough unethical unjustifiable I think it’s wrong to kill any animals for food if you don’t have to so why, don’t you just talk about your position on the whole thing yeah so I guess um I’m I guess my goal is going to be to present a an argument an ethical argument in favor of meat eating or moral one? And then to run through I guess some of yours I think there are a lot of arguments that people use in favor of veganism that aren’t really legitimate arguments but I understand that this is a I feel very strongly about a lot of use I have this is one of those things where in like years especially if lab-grown meat continues to make progress I can see this as being something that we look back on it what the fuck were we thinking like so I am I’m kind of on the fence about things? And then I also kind of just feel bad scary because I look at your conversations with people like no bullshit and I see, you, like talk to a lot, of like really fucking stupid meat eaters so yeah yeah like people always say that I attack low-hanging fruit but it’s not, really, the case it’s really those are the only people who bother to have a debate with me yeah no I understand and honestly like mo like if I had to choose the side with more intellectual integrity like honestly most people that eat meat are retarded as fuck anyway like you have people that own animals and are like crying and crying that like cecil the lion died but then they eat like fucking millions and millions of pounds of beef like every year it seems a little bit inconsistent to move in yeah right okay so um? Why, don’t we just have a I don’t you talk about your side of the story maybe go through some of the reasons why, you think it might be ethical or justifiable to eat meat right now shaffer you so basically the way that I kind of set up my argument is I i guess it’s a little bit axiomatic and that I just define the fact that humans exist on a different level than animals and that gives us the right to do whatever to them basically the way that I kind of draw this distinction is that animals aren’t really capable of? Reciprocating social value the same way that people are so for instance if we can have like a social standard of values amongst humans I can say you know like we shouldn’t kill each other we shouldn’t steal from each other etc etc? Other humans can respect that they can if they’re too young to they can grow to respected right they’re capable of like intellectually recognizing that thing whereas animals for the most part are not except maybe with with very few exceptions although I’m not even sure how real that is so for instance I could respect alliance right-to-life as much as possible or a cow’s right to life or whatever but these animals will never share that same respect with me and to take it further will also be constantly killing other animals in the wilderness as well I can never hold them to any kind of moral or ethical standard it’s kind, of like how I approach it okay, so I think I even discussed this a little bit with no bullshit and the war skis okay you’re basically saying social contracts are what essentially make it right or wrong to kill an animal so because an animal can’t form a social contract with you therefore it’s okay to kill an animal so yeah that’s like that that is your argument, oh yeah, yeah I’m pretty much at saying, okay, well um? The thing is like this kind of falls apart when you put this in an anthropocentric context because if a human being can’t form a social contract with you does that make it okay to kill that human being so like I’m not even talking about, okay like horrible horrible violent I’m not even talking about horrible violent criminals like obviously when they break a social contract, we you know put them in jail or prison or something like that?

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Um what about like uncontacted tribes people where if they see you, they’ll like try to attack you and kill you on sight do you think it’s okay to massacre like indigenous populations who have been like uncontacted and are violent towards any outsiders yeah so the way that I am to address your earlier points and then some would rise people like I would argue that we already? Do to some extent except a kind of a lower class of treatment for people that don’t reciprocate values you already brought up people like prisoners people that murder right if somebody steps into your property to kill you then you immediately remove all respect from them right if if they through and then even you could even extend that further is fucked up as it sounds to people with severe mental illness as well right like we treat them as? Lower-class citizens oftentimes they are required to have permanent caretakers they can be restricted to certain facilities to take it a step further for tribes people I guess I would kind of lean back on that earlier argument that I know that humans are capable of being cognizant of social contract so even if they weren’t currently? They have the potential to be so but to take it a step further we’ll assume in your world that they’re passed that point they’re all in their s or s or whatever and they’re never going to go? To that level then, I don’t know if morally I would say like, oh, well it’s not okay, to – I guess genocide that group of people since they’re never capable of reciprocating that social contract right like you, don’t see that is sort of a double standard where this really, doesn’t become something about social contract it’s really more to do with you just thinking just being kind of bias to your own species in a sort of illogical way um? Well I mean I would argue that I am biased towards my own species? For sure because it is my species right because you have a chance like that for me personally that’s where a lot of the social contract comes from right like it’s a self-interested point of your like I respect your rights to live and exist because I want you to respect my rights to live and exist right I’m a human you’re human, we share these kinds of values of one another and again like that’s something that, we can reciprocate I guess because, we’re humans that other animals can’t necessarily reciprocate so I would agree with you and calling it a bias I don’t know if I would call it an irrational bias I think it is founded on some rationality but well the thing is if you’re going to say? Social contract is what makes it okay to kill animals but you know in the situation I gave you you? Wouldn’t accept that for a human being you don’t find that sort of hypocritical and sort of a double standard wait where I wouldn’t accept? What for human gene, well no sorry like if a human being can’t? Form a social contract with you you, wouldn’t say okay, we have to murder that person? Whereas you would say I know I said yeah I said I said I would if we if you came across a tribe of people whatever and these people were never ever like I was assuming like in your world say these people, were past the point of ever being integrated into society and they will constantly try to kill other people I would say that in that case, yeah sure it’s okay, I would find it morally I guess acceptable to genocide that group of people or whatever really like even if I can’t remember their the exact name of this tribe but there’s this very small island where a tribe of people live there for the most part they’ve never really, been contacted I think there’s one like there’s the british at one point contacted them but they had a really bad experience and since then they’ve been super super hostile to outsiders like they just shoot bows and arrows at anyone who tries to come by their island well like the thing is? We understand that these people like you know, they’re human beings we’re sentient they can experience pain and suffering and even though like they’re primitive and everything and they’ve like a violent cult-like culture at least they’re violent to outsiders you know we can sort of respect their right to life, we can see them as human beings? So what you’re it’s just completely unnecessary to go up to them and just completely massacre them all and that’s sort of how I see the animal agriculture industry like okay even if they can’t you know we’re safer correct reciprocate rice or you know a respect to social contract you’re just causing harm and suffering for absolutely no reason so there’s kind of two parts to that I guess I’m the first one if it was completely and totally avoidable if you if there was absolutely nothing to gain by I guess jenna sighting an island full of these tribes people or whatever I would argue it’s probably unnecessary I don’t know if I would attack that from a moral or ethical point of view though in just said that this is a waste of resources or something which you can probably make similar arguments about the animal agriculture industry as well for the second part of that, oh fuck what was the second part of what you said I just lost it oh okay, well I was basically saying i? See the animal agriculture industry as completely unnecessary sort of like I would be completely unnecessary to go over to that island and just massacre those group of people,

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or like pretty much no reason but I just don’t disobey my agriculture yeah yeah so for the second thing in terms of like how I construct rights or civil liberties or? Ethical moral behavior what I prefer people typically my default assumption is that everything is okay unless it’s not okay to do so right and then when somebody that’s a little confusing maybe yeah I am loving so everything is okay unless it’s not okay to do so what makes something not okay is generally when you’re infringing on the rights of another human so for instance is it morally ethical to like masturbate right well if you’re not hurting anybody else that’s fine is it morally ethical to smoke weed or drink alcohol sure thing that’s fine is it morally ethical to steal something from somebody else or to rape or murder somebody will know because now you’re infringing on the rights of another human person who’s rights with respect right and then when it comes to somebody like animals right because I’ve at least in my worldview I’ve set it up to where I don’t really respect the rights of anybody that’s not capable of reciprocation do what you wish right is essentially my approach to it okay, so indigenous tribes people like if you just so wish to maybe you just enjoy killing people you think it’s not a moral issue to just massacre an entire island of indigenous people who just you know who are hostile to outside if they’re not capable of reciprocating then yeah go for it really it sounds like cold but yeah okay um like I see another issue with this this argument of the social contract argument because um like you could use that to justify the holocaust because like okay nazis can just say, well, we don’t give a shit about forming a, social contract with jews so we can just kill them like it’s almost like a might makes right argument um let me write things down forgot things so the the thing about that is that when you talk about jews right now you’re starting to split people up into different groups of people and I would have to ask what your? Rationale is for doing something like that so for me personally I don’t put groups of humans above other groups of humans some people might do it on the basis of race or gender men are better than women white people are better than black people asian people or whatever right like that but but if you’re going to make that kind of assertion that you want to draw a line or a distinction between like jews and non-jews then you have to ask for a reason why you have to give a good rational logical argument for that and I don’t think the nazis provided any kind of compelling argument for why jews were worthy of extermination you know and insofar as my definition goes you know I think the jewish people are probably plenty capable of engaging in social contract? Or any other kind of you know human-like behavior I think most humans are or if not all humans are right aside from those severe limits we disable – murder is a rapist or whatever so I don’t think that you could use my philosophy to defend nazism because nazism calls for a special argument for why jews are subhuman which I don’t think they adequately ever provided ok, so then it this this sort of comes back to the name the trait argument though I guess you are choosing social contracts but um like the issue I see there is if you’re going to say social contract, is what ultimately make something like morally justifiable? Then basically anyone at any point could just say like I don’t choose to have a social contract with you and therefore like like again it’s basically a might makes right argument you’re not like what you consider moral doesn’t have anything to do with actual outcome of the situation it’s just whether or not somebody can like reciprocate these moral values with you yeah so for the first so there’s a two-parter to take the first card on when you say anybody can leave a social contract I mean they can people can leave the social contract anytime they want if I want to I can walk across the street and murder my neighbors to steal their shit if I want to but as soon as I exit that social contract then other people no longer have the responsibility to maintain that social contract in me right the police will show up or somebody else could kill me in the act of right robbery and whatnot for the second part what you consider moral has nothing to do the outcome of the situation I’m not very much an ends justify the means person I think that I think that morality should be considered through and through so for instance you get, into weird territories when you’re like should you consider the outcome when you’re when? You’re talking about morality like things like the trolley problem at that point right if you could push somebody in front of a moving train to say four people four people would you do it what would you kill one person to harvest organs to save ten people like I feel like you get into weird areas I don’t usually consider morality based on outcomes but more on the actions that you’re committing well this isn’t even really a trolley situation here it’s like you could either choose to cause the suffering death of animals or you could choose not to it’s not like you have to kill somebody to save a bunch of other people like, no you’re literally just choosing am I going to kill these animals or not oh sure yeah no in that situation I agree I was speaking to the general idea of? Considering morals based on the outcome so and again like to backup for choosing the suffering and death of animals this is where I wouldn’t draw a distinction between the suffering death of animals versus the suffering and death of a plant like these things I would consider to be, well the clients aren’t sentient and they they have, no consciousness like they can’t suffer I mean I feel like suffering, is there is a pretty loaded word, we could go into that specifically or sentience I guess we can go, into that as, well you you actually think plants are sentient? Well no I kind of say why, does sentience matter what do you mean by sentence oh sentence like the like having consciousness the ability to have pain and suffering have thoughts feelings emotions experience life from a subjective point of view gotcha so I guess when I so I have a very cold view I guess of all of this so I i don’t are you spiritual at all or do you believe in religion or anything um no like I’m not religious at all I don’t believe in any kind, of god I guess I wouldn’t call myself spiritual like necessarily god, oh? When I look at things like pain and suffering this is all going to sound really cool inside but like when I look at things like pain and suffering like these are essentially mechanisms that organisms have to avoid negative stimuli right let’s not cheering if you hit an animal if you if you hit a person right you know you have some built-in natural responses right here your cover your face you turn your back you know maybe you do things to avoid pain right animals are much the same way if you take an animal a dog oftentimes they’ll cry grab for help or they’ll run away right but I think you can make so there are similar types of avoidance mechanisms in plants as well right certain plants will grow towards sunlight to maximize nutrients I’m sure that there are different ways that plants do things to maximize their gathering of nutrients right weeds will grow deeper roots to try to take? Nutrients from grass and shit like I just view these always like I guess like mechanisms of things that exist I don’t necessarily add like a moral weight to it just because something has the mechanism built-in to avoid you know some sort of negative stimuli I don’t know if that certainly grants it any kind of like moral I guess more right to exist I guess. I don’t know it’s something along those lines, okay? I don’t know how far like you take this like are you really saying that it’s perfectly fine to skin animals alive yeah yeah I would so here’s the big here’s the big fuck up with meteors and this is why I think most meteors are really fucked and I understand I think we’re kind of going down the emotional appeal route but but I think that when it comes to animal rights they think it’s either everything or nothing and I’m very much obviously since I’m making the argument from the mediator point of view I have to stand on the everything side I don’t think that if you are a meat-eater if you’re watching this debate as a meteor I think it’s really stupid to try and draw a distinction between like well I think that it’s okay to massively harvest and and torture and eat tons of animals but I don’t think that like both fighting or skinning animals is okay like this is a bad thing so I’m going to sit on the end of pretty much any treatment towards animals is permissible because I don’t consider them as having any of the rights so that humans do would be my point of view okay, so like the problem I have with this is you’re okay this is strange so you don’t actually it seems like like this is a very nihilist perspective you’re basically adding some extension like you’re basically saying, doesn’t matter who you harm how like for what reason um it’s basically like you’re saying morals just don’t exist well unless you’re capable of reciprocating right the social contract is kind of what I construct everything off of right? Okay so if they are capable of that then you extend to them the same rights that you would extend to yourself or demand for yourself rather? I don’t like I don’t understand how that is the only determining factor that would make something either like immoral or moral wait why don’t you take actual the outcome of the situation into account like okay you, don’t have to kill innate animals like you can just eat plants so you do recognize that animals are sentient beings that can experience pain and suffering like why don’t you recognize that, okay? Even though these animals can’t reciprocate rights and you know agree to a social contract I’m just causing unnecessary suffering and death to these animals that would rather not suffer and have a will to live like why, don’t you recognize that that’s something important okay, so to kind of break this down upon my mind so for the first one in terms of I never look at like what you have to do or?

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Don’t have to do right there are a lot of things that you do that you don’t necessarily have to do right we don’t have to be engaging in a conversation you know right now online? We don’t have to play video games or have to, do what a million other things we do right so I don’t really consider those to be I guess like arguments against something in terms of the animals are sentient beings so sentience is a trait that in and of itself I just, don’t see much value in I mean I don’t I don’t know how you can, necessarily quantify that, or what it’s what is relevance really is? Regarding whether or not how you should treat something right like a murderer or somebody else might be sentient that doesn’t really mean anything to me in regards to whether or not I should respect their right to life and then when you talk about like unnecessary suffering of death for animals and whatnot I mean we’re kind of circular at this point to where I would say that I would need a compelling reason to believe why? Animals should have some kind of right to exist like what is it what is the compelling defining thing that makes it so that I should look at an animal go, okay well this is something that is worthy of protection worthy of some sort of right being extended to it? Aside from like the the sentience thing I guess is the argument it doesn’t ask well like do you just like are you actually a sociopath yeah maybe but like you’re but like maybe a little bit but I don’t think it’s relevant to the conversation, no, well I think it kind of is okay? Like most people have empathy and they can understand that you know I don’t like it when I get hurt or I wouldn’t want to be killed and since these animals are also sentient like obviously they don’t have the same cognitive ability that we do and they’re not sentient to the extent we are? They still have a will to live similar to similar to us and you know, they feel pain similar to us like even emotional pain like if you rip a baby cow, away from its mother like they they both it’s insanely stressful for both the mother and the baby cow so like knowing that why would you be perfectly fine with just causing that harm to another living being so so again and breaking all of these down I’m trying to do this like as rationally as possible so I’m trying to avoid the emotional arguments here when you talk about how? I don’t like it when I’m killed since these animals are also sentient etc like this is I think this kind of plays into my end where it’s like, I don’t like to be killed. I don’t want to be killed or raped or hurt or whatever and because of that I extend that right to other people who can also understand and accept that so I don’t kill my neighbor or steal his shit or kill his children or dever because? I don’t want him stealing my shit killing me or? Killing my children right I can engage in that contract with him he understands it I understand it and then all of society is kind of built on this reciprocation if I venture into a forest and there’s like a you know like a hungry fucking bear some shit I can respect him in his right to life and not hurt his children all I want but if he’s hungry and he sees, me I’m just a fucking meal to him he’ll never ever ever have that same respect for me right well iii don’t see why that matters like you can just choose I don’t know not to walk into the forest and walk into a bears territory and not kill it yeah I mean I could choose that or I could choose to walk into the forest and kill it I just don’t see a strong moral compulsion one way or the other and if killing it or it ever brings me entertainment or joy or food or whatever or even just entertainment right because let’s be real you don’t really need to eat me to survive right so we’ll just say entertainment I would need a compelling reason not to entertain myself and since I don’t have a strong argument for respecting the life of a bear any more than the life of a tree or stalk of corn or whatever I just, wouldn’t see a compelling reason not to do it okay, so you’re saying that your own personal enjoyment is worth more than any animal’s life yeah okay, this is it much much the same way that it would be worth more than the limb the life of like a tree or? A plant or whatever not in the same now I would make the argument like you should be able to set fields ablaze or whatever because they’re right negative things that can happen as, well but okay the problem I’m seeing here is like you’re basically saying well sentience like the ability to feel pain and suffering that doesn’t matter and you just throw away that as any kind of value but it’s almost as if you’re arbitrarily placing a value on on a social contract so I so again things become like a little bit axiomatic here where we just were kind of? I’m assuming something to be true because it is like the the reason why I harp on the social contract is because I think that you can build an entire civilization of that of perfectly functioning human beings that function and exist and live with each other peacefully because of that social contract so I guess you could argue that that might be arbitrary but but then I turn around and I ask you like how do you draw a distinction between you know plants versus animals or you know especially lower animals versus more complicated plants like I feel like your distinctions become as arbitrary as mine whereas at least for the social contract I can point to well I can build society and civilization around this that’s kind of how I look at the social contract as being my way of constructing everything you know well it’s not like I don’t understand that there’s sort of a hierarchy of life I mean a human life I’d say is more important than a, fish’s life why but well because we have a higher, we have a higher cognitive ability? We live longer, we’re more sentient? We have a higher emotional range like just the impact on the world that? We can have is just so rater than a fish they’re looking looking at that real quick just just to kind of draw another so one thing that I got uncomfortable is when people make certain arguments when you start to get into like really gray arbitrary areas when you say things like, we are more intelligent have more emotional intelligence what why? Do you reach a certain level where all of a sudden that emotional intellectual intelligence makes you worthy of life but like what what level how, does that magically like what threshold to crossfit does that well I think I think, we I think it’s reasonable to say that all like if we can recognize that a creature is sentient and has or at least has some level of sentience and can experience pain and suffering I think to some extent it has a right to life but like where I draw the line is like okay what is the most reasonable way for me to exist in the world while causing the least amount of suffering lower death possible within reason so like I’m not going to just go abandon civilization and live out in the woods just so that I can like avoid I don’t know buying something on amazon and then like the plane that it was shipped on hitting a bird like I i think that’s unreasonable but like it’s like I can just very easily choose not to consume animal products like I can very easily choose not to buy meat from the grocery store like it’s just a very reasonable common-sense situation where I don’t have to support that sort of pain suffering and death and I can live quite comfortably now if now if insects were to like infest my apartment like termites termites cockroaches or something I can recognize that they’re sentient to a very limited extent but they’re interfering with my well-being and I think it’s fine in that situation to exterminate those insects who you know are actually, affecting my well-being like what you’re doing here is you’re basically throwing out like every other like every animal in every situation saying none of that shit matters because social contract I don’t only care about people whereas yeah I think I have a much more common sense approach and like I’m just taking context into account where okay like I can recognize that most animals are sentient they can, experience pain and suffering and I’ll just do whatever I reasonably can to eliminate or reduce their pain and suffering but you know in some situations you have to have a certain standard of well-being and you have like exterminate cockroaches sometimes like so yeah totally for basically basically what I want to say the main problem I have with you is you’re? You’re saying like instead of saying like like let’s let’s just do a common-sense thing and try to reduce offering you’re just saying, okay? Well it’s either all or nothing if we can’t eliminate all suffering then just fuck em all? Yeah that’s what I’m getting from so to speak to this I i don’t believe in in like reducing suffering of animals because I’m trying to make an argument that what I see as being is the most morally consistent argument if you’re talking if your goal is to reduce the suffering of animals and the only reason you would be interested that is because you think that the suffering of animals is something that should be avoided if you think the suffering of animals should be avoided then I don’t think there is any good argument you can make in favor of eating meat I think it makes you a hypocrite at that point because it’s very possible to live off of a diet that involves no animal products whatsoever so I don’t see how you could possibly be in favor of eating meat if you’re also in favor of reducing suffering right if you’ve already admitted that killing animals for food is wrong how can you ever be in favor of it right so this is why I approach seems really? All-or-nothing because I’m trying to be as consistent on this point as possible and again like if you start to say things like well I don’t think we should you know like torture animals like skin and animal like that’s not, okay so well why? Don’t you think that’s okay if that’s why is it that that’s not, okay? Killing an animal for food when you don’t need to is okay right that seems really hypocritical to me let’s just be clear just to be clear so are you saying animals should have no rights at all and like the current animal rights policies, we have with regards to like humane slaughter like? We do have humane slaughter laws where the animal has to be stunned before it gets its throats would open like cruelty to pet like you can’t abuse your, dog like you think all those rights just that we give to animals shouldn’t exist yeah I think they’re absurd I think they’re absurdly?

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Hypocritical I think it would be it would be similar to having like ethical treatments of slaves like we would never ever ever ever accept these arguments for people? Why, do we accept them for animals would be more? Well if you just read the bible like there is ethical treatment of slaves, oh boy I’m not religious I’m sorry so I try to I know but I’m not talking about this from a religious yeah I know in the past there might leave a like these ones for what we decide right now yeah I’m sure they? Were I’m sure there were probably laws on how you should treat slaves in the eighteen hundred’s, oh? No but like I’m not but this kind of morality is is something that I engage in right and today with our current understanding of? Ethics like nobody would be okay with saying like, okay? Well I have a slave you know I have slaves that are humans and everything but I treat them really nice so you know I don’t torture them or anything so that’s kind of cool right will people be like well no the fuck that’s slavery that’s fucked up that’s wrong right I think it’s really bizarre that, we live in a world where? Where you can get in trouble for kicking your dog like there’s laws against that against that kind of animal cruelty but you know we you know lock up chickens and shit in coops for? You know their entire fucking lives you know shitting out eggs and whatnot for human consumption like that seems really, hypocritical to me as okay and that definitely is yeah so why I say like I think most meat eaters are very fucking epic reddit where people will cry because it’s some fucking line that gets shot you know an ocean away and then they go down to the store and they buy you know a ton of fucking rib eyes and shit for dinner tonight like that seems really morally inconsistent to me um it is morally inconsistent and steadily hypocritical I agree with you but again there’s this all-or-nothing sort of mentality that you have where like why, don’t you even if it is hypocritical like why don’t you just see this as okay it’s hypocritical but maybe this is a step toward something better like if we can give rights to dogs to like make sure like it’s illegal to abuse your, dog like beat the shit out of them like why isn’t that okay let’s build upon this let’s extend that to other animals because that are let’s make for me personally that’s not something I would ever build a pun that’s a decision for me if I decided at one point that animals will say what sentence is kind of your argument with sentence or a certain level of metacognition soar intelligence whatever are worthy of? Protection that’s an all-or-nothing thing that’s like a, okay well you know I’ve made this decision I’m a? Vegan because I’m not going to sit here and protect the rights of some animals and then fucking massively slaughter and eat other ones it’s like an insanely hip, never feel like I’m being a moral or ethical person who just feel so inconsistent to me okay, right I imagine like as a vegan like that I’m sure you see that too like that has to be really irritating when you see somebody like loving and petting their, dog and cat they think they’re so cool and then they run in ae like a giant fucking steak and shrimp dinner something that has to be like hypocritical as fuck right so totally um okay uh! the thing here too like you, don’t think it’s sort of a better perspective to have where okay let’s give rights to even if we’re not planning on building upon it like let’s give rights to dogs or cats or you know pets where? It’s not, we you know draw a line and sand it’s illegal to abuse them don’t you think that’s sort of a better like a better sort of moral or legal structure to have than just saying fuck all animals just do whatever the hell we want to them, well so I would have to ask why I mean we already own an animals are essentially? I don’t know a lot of people get mad but animals are really slaves right that’s what they are we locked them up in our house, we don’t let them roam anywhere? We keep them inside we usually feed them shitty diets of fake food and then we force them to stay around to entertain ourselves right? They say then, we feed them right like? Well again like are you actually saying that causing less harm to animals isn’t a benefit correct anyway correct that evens and then that yeah that well I mean maybe to them but I’m not concerned with them right i? Think that it sounds extreme but I think this is the only reasonable stance to take again because if you start to make concessions that well maybe we shouldn’t be mean to animals then it’s like, okay? Well why are you eating them right I don’t think you can sit in a gray area I think it has to be all or nothing I don’t for the record I don’t like vegetarians either because I think that sits in a really, weird line I got to know how you’re going to make this should be a vegetarian and not just be a vegan like it doesn’t make any sense to me like the thing with the social contract argument you’re making – have you ever owned any pets yeah I have a cat right now okay, like, okay, maybe I think cats will eat your corpse as soon as you die they’re lazy after richard, oh yeah but I’m a dyke right now I’ve had dogs in the past yeah like if you’ve ever owned a dog they really grow to love you you haven’t like you haven’t actually noticed that I mean like I feel like this is getting into more kind of emotional territory it’s not really emotional because they are sort of forming a, social contract with you because you know a wild feral dog if like they’ll just rip you to pieces but your own you know family pet like your pet dog they really grow to love you and they’ve never do that to you you don’t really consider that as some sort of social contract like obviously it’s not the same extent a human will form social contract with you but I mean at the risk of sounding colder than the fucking north pole like do they grow to love you I mean to some extent sure but anytime you keep an animal around and you provide it with enough food and shelter and you hang out with it like it will begin to foxy’s feelings right like I mean you can anything you can make that same argument with human children like if you, don’t fucking take care of them they’ll grow. to hate you well sure human children can grow to respect a social contract right which was kind of my? Central axiom for why I respect humans are not animals right even for children that aren’t capably that aren’t currently capable of respecting social contract they have the intelligence to grow – respect – well again like if you, don’t like if you, don’t treat a child, well like if you don’t take care of it don’t feed it it’s just going to grow to like totally resent you and if a kid is brought up in that sort of environment you really think they’re going to grow up to respect social contracts like these are the type of kid to become insane fucking psychopath sure I mean I would consider the to be a fault of the parent but but I would, also agree with you as well again if somebody comes up to me on the street and say I have an ability to flash and look at his entire life and I see that for whatever due to years of neglect and abuse he’s grown up to not be a respectful member of society that doesn’t change my stance on him if I think he’s going to hurt me or fuck with my shit then you know you take appropriate action you wouldn’t extend to him the same respects and rights forever that you would another more? Reciprocating human being right but the issue here is um so do you like the issue what half years it seems like you’re sort of ignoring the fact that animals like can to some extent have sort of a social contract with you like even even if even if you think, okay it’s not real love they’re just like the only reason they like you is because you fed them and gave them a warm home and everything don’t you think just the fact that they’d sort of return the favor to you like be affectionate towards you not bite you because you give us I mean to them like you, don’t think that gives them any sort of right to any kind of respect not not, particularly no I don’t think that that the fact that something is grateful that you feed it I don’t think necessarily entitles you to the same rights that humans have or or any level of rights that would be similar to a human okay, so like even if like so eve you just think anyone should be able to like torture their dog to death pretty much yeah because it’s a possession and you don’t extend the same rights to the animal that you would see humans han okay and if you if your next-door neighbor if you found out that your next-door neighbor buys dogs tortures them to death like skins them alive you, wouldn’t think that person should be locked up why I mean I might for a host of other reasons but uh, well exactly well exactly well? Well but this gets into more likely because? Typically people that like murder or torture animals have severe empathy issues I think it’s natural for human beings to this is one only for anthropomorphize there’s a word only for where you basically you, assign human traits to animals because some of the ways they they act are superficially similar to human so somebody’s like torturing animals on the daily it’s probably something fuck with them mentally but but again like to the argument you just said like would you be uncomfortable and I know like everybody in chad’s like I would be uncomfortable there was a guy you know torturing animals and shit you know next door to me people will say that and even media ters will say that but then they will go and they will buy food that they don’t know how those cows are brought up they don’t know how those chickens are brought up some of those farms are fucking horrible places and they don’t give a fuck that they’re you know that they’re stuck on their feet all day or injected for local hormones or whatever and they’ll? Eat them they, don’t really care so I feel like this is more like an emotional argument that that meat eaters are inconsistent on ok I’m getting the feeling that you’re either not being totally genuine with what you’re saying like you? Don’t actually believe what you’re saying or you? May just actually be a sociopath and so like so that this is kind of the this is kind of the problem so with animal can’t ask you something yes I mean um do you think you have it in you to torture dog like would you feel ashamed of yourself? Would you like even just kill a, dog like do you do you think you have it in you to do that to an animal um oh? I don’t know probably not maybe I guess if I had to I don’t know I’ve never really thought about it before I’ve ever killed an animal before no I don’t I enjoy shooting and everything too but I don’t really like hunting I don’t think any of that is very entertaining to me like, ok so you’ve actually never killed an animal before like I’m sure we’ve all killed spiders or something yeah maybe I’m like ran over I mean I slowed down if I see like a bunny crashed in the road or whatever like why is it because I don’t get enjoyment out of killing animals that shit is not, okay? Well if like I i think that’s telling a bit because again this makes me feel like? You’re not, actually being genuine with what you’re saying because if you’re saying?

40:00

Who gives a fuck what happens to any animals they can’t reciprocate right, well why? Would you slow down when you see like a rabbit or a bird or squirrel on the road so i? Feel like you have to be careful when you go down this road because you can very easily find people who do get like what if I were to tell you well actually yes I love hunting it’s actually really enjoyable for me to hunt like there’s something beautiful about seeing the life flicker away from an animal’s eyes or something right like if I were to answer like this then you kind of like run, into a dead end for me personally I just, don’t I’m not a big like I don’t like killing things at all it’s not something it’s for entertaining to me that doesn’t mean I’m assigning like more way to divide a friend that was a hunter or whatever I wouldn’t think less of them you know just for me personally it’s not something that I enjoy it all but but when you run down the emotional or quote-unquote common-sense argument you have to be careful because you know a lot of the same people I’m going to pull the same thing you did to no bullshit right a lot of the same people would say the same thing about black people for slavery right like well you know are they really human you know do they really feel the same way that we feel like I mean just look at um common sense you know like I think that it’s really you have to be really careful going down those emotional routes I seem like I’m being ungentle as possible but I’m not trying to give you the impression that I will like go outside and look for dogs to skin because I have nothing better to do with my time I’m not I’m not saying that um like when, we create laws like don’t murder don’t rape don’t steal um I don’t think the I don’t think most people think of it in the in the way you’re thinking of it for sure I a greater basically you’re basically you’re it’s just pure cold hard, logic like, okay? What’s the best most efficient way? We can exist in society and you know be as productive as possible like most people, don’t see it that way most people say like see it in a very emotional empathetic sort of way like I agree I want to be killed know like it’s basically a golden rule sort of thing, don’t treat others the way you, wouldn’t want to be treated um? Bit like and again I think you do think in that sort of way and I just think you’re trying to be as logically consistent as possible so that you can justify eating meat without being an absolute hypocrite because again you’re saying if you’re driving a car and you see a rabbit crossing the road or say like a squirrel or a dog or whatever you slow down and try to avoid running it, over like why, would you inconvenience your skier and convenience yourself like that well I just not like a, tumbleweed rolling across the road I’d probably slow down too because I want to like put my tire my car up or something I mean I don’t think that’s like a good litmus test for like what are your actual like moral foundations if you don’t you know run over an animal and cause it to explode on the road and fuck your tire in your car like, well like I mean I don’t think that’s like the way to and I think it’s a good way to like attack my okay um assuming let’s say, you’re driving a tank okay and you saw like I don’t know bunny or a squirrel or something crossing the road would you slow downs and not run over that animal? I’m driving a tank I i mean why? Am I driving a tank of real orzo and I’m probably going through like other what I’m sort of like? What the point I’m trying to make I’m just trying to figure out whether or not? You actually do on some level care about animals or if you’re actually being genuine because it is actually starting to seem like you’re not being totally genuine with me here because like you admit that you wouldn’t you’re not really interested in just running over animals you you would sort of? Inconvenience yourself a little bit to avoid causing you know so yeah but i, well but it’s not to avoid suffering and death I don’t really care I just I just wouldn’t do it because I don’t feel like running over an animal I wouldn’t run over anything and I think you’re reading a little bit too much into it like I’m not like avoiding it because I don’t think the bunny is running home to its chilling well if you knew that it couldn’t possibly harm the vehicle you’re in or like inconvenience you in any way like running the thing over it. wouldn’t fuck up your tires or something like driving a tank would you actually bulldoze over a rabbit or squirrel or you know anything that’s on the road I mean I don’t well let’s so I don’t like littering or fucking up like the environment either like I don’t like throwing shit around I mean but let’s assume that I didn’t care about any of that let’s just him I didn’t care how the road looked or whatever there was a magical street cleaner at the end of the day than yeah I guess I would i? Wouldn’t really bother me? You would you yeah sorta have an animal even though like if you just slow down a little bit it could just wander off and the rack would be perfect on correct and this is it and again and I know I understand it like it sounds like I’m being really extreme but I agree with you that I consider .% of meat-eaters to be complete and total fucking hypocrites so I’m giving you what I believe to be the most morally and logically consistent platform? Possible I’m not going to sit here and defend the rights of some animals and then say that we should eat meat? I don’t think that position is defensible and I will tear apart any meat-eater that wants to talk about, well you should respect bunnies or, deer or dogs or cats but then on the other hand say also I eat fucking tons of chickens and steak all the time like I don’t think that’s a legitimate argument I think that’s totally unfounded and completely hypocritical in my opinion okay um it’s an interesting perspective I don’t think I’ve actually met anyone who gave this sort of argument before but what I’m still not really like I still don’t entirely understand your position here because again you’re it’s like you’re just arbitrarily placing ultimate value on social contract but you’re ignoring like actual empathy which I think does matter like the actual outcome of your actions how this affects other beings like I don’t listen why that doesn’t matter to you at all so you phrased this as I put arbitrary value onto social contract while ignoring empathy but my argument would be I think I’ve reasonably defended the importance of social contract and I would argue that you place arbitrary value on empathy like why is your your? Your defensive empathy less are less arbitrary than my defense of social contract I feel like I’ve rationalized social contract can you tell me why you feel empathy is a really important basis to build your moral system around well because it actually considers? Outcome whereas yours doesn’t it what do you mean by that mind considers outcome it’s the outcome of how people function in society right I don’t kill you so you, don’t kill me the gold right, okay it’s entirely anthropocentric like why can’t we extend empathy towards animals at all and again this really does come back around to humans because if we’re not going to extend empathy to animals like you really think that people who just torture and kill dogs for fun you, don’t think there should be some sort of social contract where you actually be breaking social contract with another human like you don’t think there should be any legal consequences to that because obviously somebody who could do that if seriously fucked up and I think there should, be some legal consequences to doing that like outside of like meat are saying oh shit you harmed animals it’s like like no this person is fucking dangerous there’s something wrong with them and like there is a danger to humans as, well not just animals like who the fuck would torture and kill a dog like who would skin a dog alive yeah but like you kind of just answered that in and of itself like if I were to if I was worried about somebody you? Know like torturing and killing dogs it’s not because of killing dogs is because they represent a threat to humans as well right I wouldn’t be concerned about the animal right? Well I think both I think I think both of it is important I think we’ll quite not you’re vegan i? Mean yeah I understand I thought about it not even just because I’m vegan like I’m really your perspective is incredibly rare I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who is using the same sort of logic and argument you’re making so yeah, I agree again. I can’t stress enough how much I hate the average person that eats meat like some like it don’t fuck like no bullshit trying to justify the meat eating like I do believe it has to be all or nothing like you’re literally like you’re literally talking about % of people who agree with me any of it like that includes non vegans it like the only people who, wouldn’t are sociopaths or people who are like just being dishonest sort of like no bullshit sure well I don’t think no bullshit is dishonest I think he’s just very stupid like if he was pretty dishonest though might be when I’ve taken as far as you, did he did agree that needless suffering is bad yeah so I guess if I can um if I can kind of back this up I think there’s kind of like like there’s like one central point that um that we kind of come to that we kind of gotten past and I think it has to do with why? Do we value the the sentience of animals why? Is that something because this is it ultimately what separates the like animals from plants for you right so I think that’s kind, of what the whole central thing? Is like is the sensitive animals something to be valued and if so why well like it really comes down to to empathy like I can understand that another being has wants to live I can understand that it can feel pain and suffering like why would I want to cause pain and suffering to that animal when I wouldn’t want that for myself? Well for like the desire to live in all of that like these are things that are just necessary functions of a biological organism right there is no biological thing that is not going to want to live because it would, well just because well just because it’s biological that doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter for sure but you know I would I will I would agree with you that I would state some neutral but just because it’s biological doesn’t mean it matters either, well no I mean like you could argue that the social contracts that human beings make it sort of biologically wired in us yet like you could argue that pressures that make it not matter well I would say it does matter because?

50:00

You’re human right its intrinsic to you as a being right the social contract and the existence of civilization all revolves around you as a human whatever animals think or feel is not really relevant to you as a human or to human civilization because you are human right that that’s like that hard line in the sand that I can draw that that’s why I try to stay away from like arbitrary definitions like because you are human and because you are interested in the existence of other humans because you want them to be interesting because as a human right that’s where the social contract comes from okay, um I don’t think, we’re going to get much further here because we’re sort of arguing in circles but um just to sort of wrap things up I just have a few like other questions yeah um so would you say it’s? Like if the entire world could go vegan we’d eliminate animal agriculture would you say that’s a better way of life than you know what we’re doing now? Um I mean there are other arguments you could start to dip into well I think I want to get into later laying health and environment but I mean from a moral perspective do you like, no I hate causing less harm I would have to say no I would have to say no to that because if I say yes to that and I still eat meat I’m essentially being a hypocrite right I don’t think you can like skirt that line there if I would if I genuinely believed that animal suffering was wrong then that would compel me to be a vegan I i? Couldn’t go and eat meat and then on the other hand say I wish that we stopped eating meat like this doesn’t make any sense okay, so you’re you’re basically saying you’re completely neutral and indifferent with respect to like the morality of causing animal suffering and death in the animal agriculture industry or choosing to go vegan and not causing that suffering and death like it literally makes no difference to correct okay um all right um I guess we should? Let’s talk about how this affects people then because I think this will be a little like a little more interesting to you like let’s talk about like health, share the animal agriculture industry affects health these probably won’t be as interesting so when you talk about veganism I think that the strongest arguments that you can make in favor of veganism are the moral ones I think that everything else gets a lot more wishy-washy because we’re going to start talking about things like environment or health people already make sub-optimal decisions in these regards anyway even being meat eaters I don’t know how you morally compel somebody to choose a more optimal path for life we can start I just for the health reasons if you want? Well the thing is if we could just eliminate the animal agriculture industry? The vast majority of people they, wouldn’t have access to meat dairy and eggs I guess people could still hunt but you know it it wouldn’t support you know the majority of people like the majority people, wouldn’t have any access to animal like animal products um like unless everyone just starts eating and it’s like a tremendous amount of junk food like oreos and vegan ice cream and vegan donuts potato chips like assuming that most people follow like primarily a whole foods vegan diet like they switch stakeout for lentils and potatoes and stuff like that you’d greatly improve the health of population like you’d reduce like you’d at least be cutting heart disease in half so like you don’t see that as a benefit so I mean it definitely is a benefit but any argument that you can make towards getting rid of meat I could probably make ten times over getting rid of sugar right sugar is is a cancer in western diet it’s one of the worst fucking things that I think has happened to us as a species you would improve everybody’s quality of life their diets immensely by by trying to acts out as much sugar weave sugar and fucking everything these days but just because I can say that cutting sugars would make us healthier I don’t know if that makes it a moral imperative to, do so right you get similar arguments you can make for exercise as well right getting out of running every day even if you, don’t lifter whatever is going to improve your health but I don’t know if that makes it like a moral imperative to do so um like I think people should have freedom of choice like I don’t think anybody should be forced to live a healthy lifestyle if they, don’t want to but like again, you’re obviously not going to agree with this because you literally do not give a shit about reducing animal suffering but like that’s always the point I make like, we could improve health and even if you don’t care about health you’d still be saving animals yeah so and we kind of were kind of running back to the moral argument which I think is the stronger like and I think it’s the only one that’s really relevant because there’s a million things that we can do that would make up what cars are something even the united states? Well a lot of people that could get by driving bikes or riding bikes without having, dated a car a lot more people could do it but they don’t and we were killing the environment and everything and animals as, well right well tech shinola the thing, is like again this is very all-or-nothing sort of approach you’re having like it’s really hard for me to wrap my head around how you can just flat-out say I literally makes no difference if you you know kill a billion like billion animals each year like if you can choose to not kill over billion animals each year and improve the health of the population even if even if all the other you know lifestyle factors like eating sugar not exercising enough even if you can’t do anything about that like how is that not a huge benefit to cut out animal product consumption even if people still aren’t going to live like totally optimal lives that would still reduce chronic disease and death in the human population which like I think you, would agree that is a benefit and you would be saving a tremendous amount of animals from like? Horrible suffering and death yes I mean you so again because if we’re disregarding the moral arguments and we get rid of the saving animals from death part what you’re essentially asking me is should we act an? Entire industry to improve the health of some people and this these go into like kind of these fundamental questions of freedom of choice and whatnot right should you have the choice to drink alcohol should you have the choice to smoke cigarettes should you have the choice to live an unhealthy life I think you probably should and at least at this point of society that’s the decision that we’ve made? If we if we decide that you know like you know, maybe people shouldn’t be left to those decisions on can you act in ways that are suboptimal to your health then in that case I would probably agree like yeah maybe acting animal agriculture is probably a good idea or at least severely curtailing it but but it doesn’t seem like that’s how we make any decision in society like should everybody be compelled to run you know one mile a day should everybody be compelled to bike a certain amount like none of these are like moral we play some people right? Well the thing is like you’re talking about personal rights this is more about um like corporate and business rights would buy that well you’re not necessarily taking away? People’s right to eat meat like I could still shoot a? Squirrel say, or go hunting but um you’d stop you’d prevent it from being a business like any like nobody can actually profit off of it start like you know a farm or sell meat you don’t think that would be a good thing well you’re kind of doing the same thing just one step removed right that would be like saying like I’m not going to make guns illegal but I am going to make it illegal to sell a gun now if people want to go into the back and get a smith or a forge and you know start harvesting or are start crafting their own weapons and forging their own weapons that’s fine I’m not? Making it illegal but I’m gonna make like I think that you kind of effectively do the same thing right you’re cutting off access for tons of people to ever have accesses I think it’s more, or less the same thing. i, don’t think the distinction matters much okay, like um yeah again I you’re either just a actual sociopath or I like I’m still getting the feeling that you’re kind of being dishonest with I’m not I’m really not someone in your chat said would I rather, be I would rather be a sociopath than a hypocrite I really would like um I do a lot of these kinds of discussions and I put a fair amount of thought into this and like I said I’m problem I really do think that veganism especially with the advent of like lab-grown meat will probably will probably be a thing in like years I’m so kind of on the fence about it but I’m really trying to be as morally consistent as possible because all of the things he was talking about like meat eaters are very very hypocritical about it and I’m not going to jump in to send like some animals and not all of them it doesn’t make sense to me saigon’s and from a moral perspective you, don’t see any benefit to eating lab-grown me compared to raising meat in agriculture and you know obviously causing suffering to animals and then killing them well again so I don’t have a compelling reason to know to believe that I should be concerned with the suffering of animals right that’s the thing that I’m missing it is that if that if that thing was there and you know I could plug that in then everything else will fall in line to point towards veganism right if you believe that the suffering of animals is something that should be avoided but I don’t I don’t have a compelling argument for why it should be okay, so you’re saying suffering and quality of life doesn’t matter it because it doesn’t affect you know for animals because wood, because it’s just not something, we’re concerned with, we would never like working? Oh, well yeah, we share share that I’m that I’m concerned with you as a human right we would never go into like a forest or a rainforest or some shit and try to find animals and hire their quality of life or protect them from other predators or anything that we would never be concerned with this kind of a thing right? Well again it seems like the only reason you’re not concerned with it is just because it doesn’t affect you um just some extent yeah in a roundabout way sure the self-interest of thing the way that the social contract works is ultimately about selfishness right we engage in social contract with others so that they? Engage in it with us right right so like you’re actually suggesting that you’re basically think like even quality of life doesn’t matter you must unless it personally affects you, well or another human yeah?

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Well again like you said social contracts really like it’s the only reason you’re in a social contract to begin with is ultimately to benefit yourself yeah correct okay so if you could wave a magic wand to like stop human suffering would you do it yeah for sure okay, well why, wouldn’t you do that for animals? Because I because I have no compelling reason to care about animals, well no no no, like again like you don’t have any compelling reason to prevent the suffering of humans really outside of like social contract so it doesn’t happen to you but I’m saying if you, were like a god and you, were just observing this you like you would and suffering of humans like if you could just wave a magic wand and just stop all people from suffering why wouldn’t you just do that animals like it seems like you do understand empathy like you do sympathize with people when they’re suffering why? Don’t you just sympathize with animals so if there is a god being what will give you the perfect possible universe of god being offered the decision to come up and say I or to acknowledge I want to end the suffering of all human beings right I would say I would go up and I would say yes I do and I would hope that any other human being because of the social contract would engage in a similar deal with any kind of omnipotent being now if a deer would approach a god figure with that decision I think here would probably just take a shit and walk off or a bear or a dolphin or any other kind of animal because they don’t think well it doesn’t have it doesn’t have the cognitive ability yeah I understand what’s going on exactly so that is kind of where I have language yeah so that well I’m not even I’d have to say but I’m just saying like these are these are beings that can’t even conceptualize right society so yeah I would be interested in ending all human suffering I would hope that every human is interested in animal human suffering but I don’t think that any animal was concerned with ending any human suffering? Well like again they like they’re just they? Don’t have the intelligence we do so it’s hard for them to even imagine this but they do like they do have empathy to some extent well every play sympathy it’s a biological process that helps us get, along with family all right but like I’m saying just because these animals like can’t form a social contract with you and maybe don’t necessarily care about you like you can still understand that they’re living beings that can feel pain like I’m just I’m just wondering why like if you were a god being who could just wave a magic wand and stop all suffering like why, wouldn’t you do that like it is literally just totally indifferent to you like if you could just stop all suffering like human and animal suffering like you just, wouldn’t do it animals but you would do it to people yeah I’m not even sure how the stopping on animal suffering. would work like what about like what are the words and stuff like would they not eat other animals or like it’s a magic wand like the ecosystem would still magically exist it’s a like a weird hypothetical I mean I know and I’m trying to I’m trying to give you as much leeway on the hypothetical as possible well without missing the point of it but like for humans like humans could probably exist with no suffering by via agriculture right but like how does a wolf like are they going to start far right or eat well it’s only I what I’m basically trying to? Get here is I’m trying to figure out if you do actually care about people on an empathetic level and not just because you you know you were here to a social contract and the only reason you treat people with you know respect and dignity and you respect their rights to you know to life is it just because you’re trying to protect yourself yes or you? Actually have empathy for another cruz I’m not going to lie to you but in the u.s. why so you can just ask me like do I care about people on an empathetic level the answer is no that’s that’s not where any of my morals or ethics come from and it’s nothing to do with empathy for other human beings and it has everything to do with with social contract and everything that I can reason out from there it’s not thing to do with empathy yeah if you ever had a girlfriend or being in a loving relationship like believe it or not yeah I have somehow. Yeah that yeah but I don’t think I don’t think these I think that’s how human is going to help your you know like it’s just very fascinating to me later I’m trying to be I’m trying to be as logically consistent as possible again like I’m just emphasizing I’m sympathetic oh god it’s worth emphasizing I’m emphasizing I’m just trying to be as logically consistent as possible in this argument okay um I’m kind of at. A, loss for what to say to you because like it like everything I like I come to you’re basically like yeah, I don’t care yeah I think that the right of your point of view I think that the easiest way to attack natives I think that anybody that owns and loves an animal or pet or is concerned with with the suffering of animals like if you go to the zoo and you’re sad that an animal is drought in a cage whatever I think that all of these people should be vegan I don’t see how like that those are these are really easy positions let’s say I feel like I could argue in favor of veganism very very very easily against the average mediator because it’s I don’t know see how you can possibly love some animals and think it’s okay to massively harvest and slaughter others it doesn’t make any sense to me right um you, did say you own that you own a cat data you have phone dogs so like were these what you did you buy your cat or did you while my cat belongs to my girlfriend and then my dog but when an ex-girlfriend okay, so you never actually bought an animal yourself personally no I don’t I don’t want the responsibility of taking care of one but I enjoy great animals like okay um alright so like I was gonna ask like would you treat it any? Differently if you know you, were the one who went out and bought that animal or if you adopted it like what would you treat it differently than how you’re treating it now? Yeah probably I would probably take care of it a lot more I mean I take his sons really fucked up but like I bought a new car and I take care of that thing way better than I would any rental car but I would view an animal as a possession just like a vehicle right or a computer or would any other thing like that an instrument right like I’m just wondering um so assuming this wasn’t your girlfriend’s cat, or like let’s say your girlfriend died or she left you and you were left with that cat would you treat it any differently than how you’re treating it now? Um I i imagine probably why, what are you trying well I don’t notice how worried I am like what I’m trying like what I’m basically trying to ask you is um like would you just lock it in a box basically i? Mean I enjoy the cat like I get I get personal enjoyment out of it being here if it ever became an inconvenience and I guess maybe I would give it to the humane society or something but I don’t feel like a moral obligation to keep it but I would why, would you give it to the humane society um I don’t know because I can give it to someone else I guess or they eventually put it down I guess but but I don’t have like I like put it on yourself um I mean I guess I could I don’t know it seems like a waste a good thing okay so even if like say you had you could see the future and you knew no one would get that cat like mom maybe like maybe it’s just really ugly cat you use not ugly now, well but not yeah I say no one else will get it then yeah I guess I would sure I would never probably putting it down really, okay all right if no one else is going to get it was just going to sit like in the in the pound or whatever and no, one, was ever going to get it or everything yeah sure okay, all right this was a weird fucking conversation I didn’t expect for you to come up with this sure I understand but do you agree you would you must agree that my position is the only reasonable one for a meat-eater right do you agree with that or like it drives me crazy when people try to like ride the line between liking some animals and not liking others it’s really strange to me um I don’t know if I consider your position the most reasonable one like it’s like it’s strange like I would have considered the most reasonable argument would come from somebody who’s just uninformed like there are people who genuinely believe that humans absolutely need to eat meat for hell okay and the most reasonable arguments I’ve seen coming from that perspective are like, okay, we do need to like drastically reduce animal agriculture we need to eat way, less meat to be more ethical we need to raise these animals and like you know an open farm and grass-fed kind of situation like that’s what I’d consider the most reasonable argument but like those people are just uninformed I guess like with you it’s just it’s weird like what I consider unreasonable about your argument is you literally do not give a fuck about at the outcome of the situation like you’re saying suffering doesn’t matter that doesn’t matter all that matters is my own personal well-being and what determines my own personal well-being is a social contract and since animals can’t have a social contract with me like fucking I would really don’t care if they suffer and I sure like that that’s why I find unreasonable yeah I understand it so I guess I would I would take issue with people because these are arguments that you would never make for human beings we need to untie when you talk about like nice ways to kind of enslave animals and then harvest their organs for food I don’t consider that to be something that we would ever accept for treatment of humans? For instance there is no ethical argument you could provide really for slavery right now in the west right well you know like I have slaves but you know they have a really nice bedroom I give them toys you know every month I provide them for internet access they’ve got wi-fi when they’re out working in the sea love like nobody would ever accept these artists they would say dude?

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Slavery is a moral sin like you cannot do this as is discussed you kind of enslave people so like if a mediator wants to say like well I’ll eat meat and stuff that comes from cows that are you know like the bellies are rubbed every day and you know they’re grass-fed and all of that like okay well that’s drink so you are acknowledging them that? Torturing and killing animals is wrong but you can kill them if you do it in certain ways like that seems really, hypocritical to me right um I do have something to say about that uh? Like if you look at a religious text like the old testament for instance there’s a lot of like very strange ethical rules involving slavery and what’s especially weird is that supposedly the israelites are enslaved by the egyptians for the longest time and then when they were finally free they allowed for slavery yeah but I mean I wouldn’t I would reject? I don’t like any part, oh well just let me carry on here um and they have rules regarding like how you can keep slaves like there’s a very strange rule where if you beat your slave and he dies within a day or two then you’re guilty of murder but you know if you survives it’s fine to beat your slave if he is being disobedient like there’s stuff like that like basically there are general rules around how you can treat your slave even though this is hypocritical like it’s very very strange how you think slavery is okay, but you have to treat your slave you know in a certain way like people even in that situation value empathy to some extent like I think they’re like and I think even you would admit there’s a biological reason for empathy like it does help us even create these social contracts yeah like I kind of I understand what you’re saying this is not about like this thing is like the the problem I have here is basically you’re saying empathy doesn’t matter and I think it does I think it’s like totally necessary for us to even respect social contracts so in looking at this I think that you can derive a, social contract using only only logic and is edgy as that sounds right I think that you can logically derive a social contract without needing to rely on emotions at all the problem that I have when you kind of make this um i? Don’t want to say like a like an appeal to nature but when you talking right like it’s in our nature to be empathetic and emotional I agree that that is true but like I can point to another system that exists that’s largely built out of emotion that’s totally dysfunctional the the prison system in the united states is built largely around emotion right if you ask somebody like what’s the purpose of prison, well it’s retribution it’s or they won’t say retribution they’ll say it’s justice or whatever right but it’s really revenge right that’s what a lot of the principles of of justice in the united states and more or less built around revenge when that doesn’t logically make any sense at all right prisons should exist for rehabilitation the factory we have insanely high recidivism? Recidivism and in goes right word rates on people that go back to jail after coming out the three strikes you’re out rule the disproportionate sentencing between black people and white people on the strange ways that we sentence people to crimes based on how much money to have for a while right all of our all of our kind of prison and lawyer and and all of that shit all of that is kind of built around this weird emotional construct of like? We need to get even with people that do bad things in society and that doesn’t really serve society at all now we have an emotional drive to get even with people that wronged us sure but that doesn’t contribute to a better society the prison system the united states sure as fuck isn’t helping us at all it’s a giant money sink it probably hurts people more than it helps them because when you lock people up if you could fucks the rest of their life up if they’ve got prison charges for stupid shit like weed or whatever on their record like I would point? To something like the prison would say like well look here’s an example of us being emotional and it being fucking horrible for us I don’t think that is an example of us being emotional I think that’s an example of us being greedy and not actually carrying that empathy because but like the people who are running the prison system they’re making a shit ton of money off of it and the reason there’s bullshit like three strikes laws in florida it’s because people are profiting off of the private prison but that but that’s not true when politicians get up and they make these argument now I will I will tell you that is what happens right with private prisons and shit for sure but when politicians get up and they have to argue for in favor of prisons right what are the arguments they always use they’re always emotionless we need to do this for the children when you talk about like hey, maybe we need to have better ways of reintegrating people into society what do they say? Oh so you want to let murderers back out of prison you want to let rapists come out and realized eh yeah they’re not necessarily the intent in my temperately intentions that’s the boat that it kind of sails on that’s how it’s sold to people in society is emotionally right like this is the other people kind of manipulating your emotion so it’s just kind of like my general argument like I don’t think that trusting your emotions is a good way to decide you know like why did we go to iraq and afghanistan because? We were ready to blame anybody in the world you know for what happened on / that was a very? Emotional decision to go overseas and to enter that ten-year war you know or occupation so much right so I i just I don’t think that like an appeal to emotion is a good way to decide what our? What our armed system of values or ethics should be? Well it’s not an appeal to emotion I’m just saying like emotions do matter to some extent like our empathy does matter because like I am arguing that without empathy we wouldn’t even really be able to maintain social contracts? So I don’t um I don’t I don’t agree with that I don’t think that emotions do matter when it comes to deciding law or ethics or morals you say that without empathy we can’t maintain social contracts I mean I can be so I can be very selfish I want to play? Computer games all day and then I want to go out and I’m gonna drive my car and I don’t want anybody to fuck with me I don’t care about anybody else but. I don’t want anybody to fuck with me I understand that in order for me to assume that nobody else will fuck with me I can’t fuck with anybody else because as soon as I go over to my neighbor’s house and start fucking his shit up what right do I have for other people to not fuck me up so like using social contract I think that you can generate a system of ethics and morals that works even on people with no empathy what soviet if I don’t give a fuck I could maybe watch my neighbor die in his front yard of a fucking heart attack and walk away from it and not care but I still wouldn’t go over and kill him myself because I want that same respect for me I i have a truck I have a problem being convinced by this argument because the vast majority of people have empathy so a vast majority people, also feel feeling that value revenge and retribution totally like these emotions are valuable like, we wouldn’t have them if they weren’t valuable and if they didn’t help us? Form the social contracts which allowed us to be this successful in the first place like all the reasons well this humanity not really in cooperate so easily that’s this is a really bad road to go down anything because you’re saying essentially that these emotions serve some value to us which I i don’t really want to agree with that but if I did agree with that then my next question be well emotionally you know we are very much drawn to enjoying you know eating meat like this is something that has a huge cultural impact to it something that we’ve done throughout all of our history eating meat is something that? We are biologically wired to do we’ve got sharp canines on the front that help us tear into flesh well we’ve got the enzymes to digest? Well yeah we’ve got the enzymes and everything to digest you know all the different human like? Well we haven’t we haven’t evolved digestive enzymes? For the for the reason of digesting meat like we have pepsin and trips and those are the two basic ones that digest protein they happen to be able to digest meat, like cows rabbits they have pepsin and trips and like they can, actually digest me like, we haven’t actually made really any physiological? Adaptations to eat meat, well why, do we have sharp teeth in the front of our mouths and our canines all these are? Wood compared to the my card and imac like like our canines aren’t sharp they don’t protrude they’re terrible they might not prefer to it at lund but we I mean we ate we digested and ate raw meat for a long time right one of them well not really um if you if you look at australopithecus specimens a lot of them have, well I guess there aren’t too many but there are also with australopithecus specimens that have bone abnormalities consistent with vitamin a toxicity so what that suggests is australopithecus when they first started eating meat they weren’t able to? Really consume a like muscle tissue so what they relied, on was? Organs particularly the liver which is particularly soft easy to rip off and chew ever happens to be extremely high in vitamin a and it’s very easy to suffer a chronic and acute toxicity from vitamin a and one of the side effects of that are bone abnormalities and it’s like that again that’s another best more evidence related a between me why, did we eat, well why? Did we consume raw meats for so long hunting was such a big part of like hurler a human factors you could either choose? To die from not getting enough food okay or you! could you know eat meat it might give you some pretty bad health issues but you’ll survive and you’ll have you’ll be able to live long enough to pass on your genes doesn’t mean we’ve made adaptations to eat me it just means it’s good enough for us to survive why do we have the ability to run like longer distances than any other animal if it was just to forage for plants or? Why, do we have teeth in the front of our mat why on all of our teeth just flat? Well again if we look at other? Like primate species like, we have teeth that are very similar I mean what? Orangutan they have bigger, canines than, we do and they they almost nothing but fruit they’d some vegetation like you know greens and a you know, some insects they have larger canines than we do like canines are an adaptation be an adaptation for self-defense there’s also sexual selection like females just may prefer that look like if I know that selection that had a second for any other type of a biological advantage that doesn’t sound very reasonable to me dharma is a most selection made for especially for males right, well the thing about getting that well I i just mentioned self-defense and there’s also sexual selection sure I got only know like I’ll give you peacocks as an example peacocks like female peacocks go after peacocks with the largest tails the peacocks with the largest tails are very easily preyed upon by predators

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gotcha oh I guess like you you, could be not correct, well not right but like not every adaptation is completely ideal for something and not every adaptation is the most practical like sometimes like things like sexual selection and just not having enough time to adapt to something like that happens gotcha I guess it’s just strange to me that we have the ability to detect like rancid meat we have the necessary faculty to digest raw meat and we were given a really very effective set of evolution? Well wait a second there with raw meat dr.Richard wrangham okay he was an anthropologist I think he’s a professor at harvard university he’s actually talked about how fire and cooking our food is what actually? You know caused our brain development yeah because it gave us a freed up so much of our resources – yeah well it not only freed up time like, we spent insane amount of time chewing but? Also just allowed us to get way more nutrients out of our food yeah biological realities yeah yes so like yeah, we can digest raw meat but we’re not too good at it and we’re also very inefficient at like actually chewing it which is why early humans before we had fire and any kind of tools? We’d just eat the liver and then, we get vitamin a toxicity from it and get own or abnormal, well but that clearly wasn’t the only thing, we were eating hunting has always been a really big part of human history? Like it’s not like all the people that ate meat like started to die of like I think you’re blowing up this liver talks is doing a lot like maybe there are some people that suffer from this but the vast majority of early humans ate right food our ada animals right it was this discovery of agriculture kind? Of set off all the way addition when like if you’re going to make that argument like remember the human species covers a vast portion of the globe and you know what, we ate was seasonal, we were nomadic creatures like you can’t just say? We ate ton of meat all the time like? What we hunted for me but this is on the argument that I that I would want to make I wouldn’t quit? When you’ll feel to like emotion I’m just saying that’s kind of like a strange road to go down because then I could say, well emotionally you know like, we enjoy eating meat we’re wired the meat, or whatever like it just seems like a strange road to go down well we’re not really why or do you mean? Okay, we have we have the ability to digest it we have the ability to tell if it’s bad or not and we enjoy the flavor yes substantial haven’t we have an ability to tell what any whether or not any food is bad or not like that’s just important for us because, we can easily get sick yeah but it’s not like raw meat smells bad to us period. kenta’s meat or dairy, oh? You mean before it goes bad yeah yeah yeah before it goes bad it’s not like all of it smells bad right we have an? Ability to detect when it’s gone past that rancid point right so I’m not trying to say that like I’m not trying to make the argument like we need to eat meat to survive or anything I’m just saying that eating meat has been a pretty big part of human history well what I’m saying like I’m not denying that but I’m saying, we haven’t really made any? Physiological adaptations to eat me at least, none that are adequate to suggest that it’s a healthy part of our diet and to any extent and we don’t have any biological drive to eat meat it’s entirely cultural like you even admitted yourself you have no interest in killing animals like if you have no interest in killing animals how was eating me – biological instinct why? Maybe I mean that might have been an instinct that’s been weeded out by living in society I mean i? Also don’t have like an instinct to kill other people but I mean if I lived in like a force or some shit and I saw a neighboring tribe maybe I would I think decided nurture to a large extent as, we did out a lot of that so I I’m not going to try to you know make an argument that this is some like ingrained and natural thing I would just say I was just speaking to you earlier saying? Well we have emotions and they’re important but you could use that to justify like a lot of really fucked up shit well like if the meat eating thing isn’t like adequate you could say that like people are tribalistic to some extent right people like to stay next to people that look like other people or look, like, themselves right so you can, make that argument to justify racism or something like that you know okay, um I don’t really want to quite into the discussion right here but like the problem I’m still seeing is like you’re refusing to accept that the actual outcome of the situation like has any significance and it correct me if I’m wrong my outcome well I mean like just causing, unnecessary suffering like eeyore you’re basically saying that outcome has like no value as long as it doesn’t affect you so that’s pretty much what you’re saying like as long as it doesn’t break a social social contract like the thing is why does the social contract why is that the only thing that matters like whether or not you break a social contract why does outcome not matter at all like the outcome of unnecessarily causing the suffering and death of animals why, does that not matter only because you’re not breaking the social contract like it what correct me if I’m wrong but really it what seems what you’re like your argument seems to be as? Long as it won’t ultimately come back and effect me like, I don’t care like it just seems like an I don’t care argument sure so are you asking me to justify how I like axiomatically approach the social contract or whatever is it it eventually like I’m so when I look for morals or ethics I’m looking for things that I can try to impose on other people because I want them to share my point of view so I feel like the I feel like the social contract is something that I can very easily impose on other people I could tell another person listen I want you to believe these things because if you believe them it will be the best for you right I would approach most of these arguments in a self-interested way? I want you to believe this not because it’s better for everybody above off but because it’s better for you right so I feel like it’s the easiest kind of idea to spread to another person it is why I favor things like the social contract so much okay, well it might be easier to explain these ideas to another person like especially if somebody’s a sociopath well no but I wouldn’t know that that’s that’s not valid right we’ve already gone over this like I can very easily get a sociopath on board with what I well because it’s in their personal interest right yeah I understand that but I still don’t see how that makes like the outcome of needlessly causing the suffering and death of sentient beings like value like it doesn’t matter well bit but it’s not neat it’s not completely without reason right it’s because meat tastes good right would be the argument for doing it and then if you’ve got an activity that’s pleasurable enjoyable and somebody tells you can’t do it the burden is on them to say, okay? Well why is this activity immoral right like, into something like masturbation right tell me why I can’t do this all I see it is is a way to you know enrich your pleasure myself and I don’t see the value in animals you have to somehow you have to make the argument that animals are worthy of value or respect in order to make that jump and say you need to reduce suffering right because you’ve got to give a reason to care about why, they’re suffering or if they’re suffering even something you should be concerned with? Okay, um I’m going to ask you this just so I can get a better understanding of your social contract argument welcome I said a bit weird? Um let’s say if you saw your girlfriend getting raped uh-huh and you had the power to stop it you would write for sure okay if your girlfriend saw you getting raped and she didn’t have the power to stop it like would that be okay for you to? Would you be like would you they’re there in that situation? Knowing that your girlfriend, wouldn’t have the power to stop you from getting raped would you still allow your girlfriend to get raped well no I mean you would hope that everybody tries as hard as they can I mean not everybody is perfect but I would hope that people would do what they could? Okay, like I know it’s like let, me let, me like, i, don’t see there being a fundamental difference let’s say that I see a child fall in the pool, okay? Or let’s say that there’s a guy walking up on the child falls and that guy could jump in to save that child and he doesn’t right I would think that that would be a morally reprehensible? Action crime to not just if it’s very easy for him to hop in the pool and get the child out now let’s say that you’re on a cruise ship and there’s a massive storm that comes by and the child falls out of a boat and and there’s another guy and he doesn’t jump into the raging waters to save the child like I’m not going to give him the same amount of shit I’m not going to like well why didn’t you risk your life to do it right I don’t think that would be a very fair thing to, do okay, well like what I’m trying to get to the bottom of is? You’re basically saying the only reason you two fold is hold a social contract is so that someone else upholds a social contract so it’s basically like you scratch my back I scratch your back kind of thing yep so if your girlfriend, wouldn’t be able to prevent you from being raped what would be your justification to? Stop someone from raping your girlfriend so I would expect her I would expect her or any other person to do what they could? Now that I desire if they could do it they could like if you know that they would fail like I thought the social contract was so that it would benefit you so if your girlfriend can’t benefit you in that situation why would you do it for her well? Because the social contract isn’t I hope everybody does everything perfectly it said I hope everybody tries as much as they can maybe if she can’t do anything that doesn’t mean that all of a sudden I drop every other agreement I have with every other person just because she wouldn’t be physically capable of doing a certain thing right it would just be a well if you’re not capable

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I’m not I’m not saying you drop, every other like contract with every other person on the thing is if your girlfriend couldn’t help you in that particular situation your social contract your social contract argument seems to sort of fall apart of it no because everybody has different strengths and weaknesses for instance let’s say that she gets a let’s say that I get a tear in my pants or something right she has a serger and a sewing machine upstairs she could fix it for me I could never fix any for clothes she wouldn’t even want me to? Try it trust me would be a fucking disaster I don’t even do the fucking laundry because I’d probably fuck everything up but just because I’m not capable of fixing her clothes doesn’t mean that she’s not going to fix mine right these are things that she’s capable of doing right or maybe preparing certain meals that I’m not capable of preparing like she can do things that I can’t do and I can do things for her that you know that she can’t do right I provide a place to live you know I pay for food and and all of our living and everything right, we there’s trade-offs right just because? We aren’t capable of % synchronous reciprocation of every single possible thing doesn’t mean that no reciprocation can take place at all right okay if that’s the case then like a, dog can still reciprocate like a social contract to you to some extent like they can give love and affection back to you so, wouldn’t that also grant them some kind, of right to? Treat them, well like like not abuse and kill them so I feel like we’re not really talking about social contract of its point because social contract is also like not doing things as, well right like we’re not social contract doesn’t necessarily mean that everybody has to help each other as much as possible more so that we have to kind of respect each other’s individual rights which is something that a dog I guess maybe with a fuck ton of training maybe a dog could but even at that I’m not sure if it would be at the level of love even but like a like a primitive human could, do but like things like trespassing on property stealing things killing people like these are things that these are social contracts that people can respect not, necessarily just helping or loving people but also respecting the rights and autonomy of other people as well okay if you were if you were going to make an argument about national contract dogs are a really good way to go though because dogs have been literally bred to be like man’s best friend over hundreds of years and they have like a really big like probably even a, biological drive to be on man right and right I was just asking that to like under understand your social contract are going to a bit moderate because it’s still very bizarre and confusing to me like that you know someone would go to this extent to say like social contracts is the only thing that matters at all sure and I understand that and again like when I talk about most of these things especially morals or ethics I think it’s really important to be very rigid and very cold because when you start bringing emotion into these you get into a lot of like inconsistent bullshit where people are picking favorites or being or? Inconsistently applying their beliefs like I try to be as rigid on this as possible I know it comes off as very cold like logic is a good thing but like the thing I’m saying is you know the golden rule like empathy does matter and even though like I think, we should use both we should both use logic and? Empathy in situations and so, I don’t like my head play because I could just leave to so much like but for instance look at like fucking um islamic people right you know, like me you know empathy could lead you into thinking that a woman wants to wear the hijab? Because she’s protecting her body and she’s protecting other men against their own whims and if we emphasize we couldn’t understand that everybody is naturally? You know inclined to these horrible human thing right I feel like if you do it on the emotional path you can just get into so many weird areas where people are making these really dumb arguments and it’s like well let’s just think about this reasonably and, well I’m not saying, we should grow logic out the window the the thing is? It’s sort of like you are throwing logic out the window to some extent because you’re like you’re basically saying, we should just allow? Needless suffering when we’ve already come to the conclusion? Between humans like needless suffering is wrong like why can’t we just come to that conclusion with animals? Needless suffering is just wrong well that’s kind of the gap? That has to be bridged right as to why does it matter if animals suffer like needless suffering is a that’s like a doesn’t mean anything right there’s a needless suffering of trees and rocks or any other kind of compound but you have to make the argument for why animal trees and rocks aren’t sentient they can’t experience suffering but even what sentence means an experience suffering these are all very human very loaded terms right I mean we’re all slaves to mechanical processes right as I said before like if you’re talking about suffering or the avoidance of pain is really just an organism avoiding negative stimuli to maximize chance alike even if that’s true that doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter like well you can understand you know it doesn’t it doesn’t mean that a torture chair it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t matter but it but it’s on the onus is on you to make it matter right like what though is it just like a certain biological process all of a sudden you know makes an animal somehow get the right that humans do in terms of respect for life or like that’s that’s the eventually we’ve already determined that with other human beings? Essentially yeah because human beings can reciprocate right that’s the foundational if not I don’t think it’s just because we can reciprocate maybe not for everybody but I only with that maybe everybody some people are emotional about it sure well listen I think there’s a reason? Why, we don’t have the death penalty in every country in every state yeah? Like I i think there’s a reason why, we don’t have corporal punishment I mean every country in every state so? Even the people that like even the people that argue against the death penalty use the most irrational I can smell them how many times have you heard somebody say like how many have you heard the death penalty is wrong and then somebody’s like well I think we need to plant committal and then they say something like? Well life in prison is a worse punishment than the death penalty so that should make you happy why I thought we were avoiding the death penalty cuz it was bad now you’re saying life in prison is even worse so which is it right I mean people make irrational arguments all the time I don’t really look towards like other parts of society to try to figure out my system of logic or well and like the point is I’m the point I’m trying to make is we don’t? Create policies entirely based on social contract, we do we do rely on empathy? But really most of the time I like all these laws I really, do we were thinking what is the best most efficient way to? You know, make society go forward okay, well let’s create a social contract like nobody thought of these laws using that sort of reasoning we like it really? Started from the golden rule like treat others how, we would want to be treated we can understand? That like, we wouldn’t want to cause unnecessary like suffering to another human like? I don’t understand how, we can’t? Extend that reason like why it’s unreasonable to extend that reasoning to humans like I’m still not like my even plan among the biggest start yet and we’re looking at the problem I’m having is why, do you think it’s unreasonable to create policies to extend that to animals when it would literally? Like not cause it would even benefit humanity like our health would improve the environment would improve I hope you’d be reducing suffering but like for some reason you’re just saying suffering isn’t that again, we’re kind of like we’re bundling a lot of these, we’re bundling a lot of like what we talked about together but but I mean we’ve kind of gone through these individually like in terms of it benefiting humanity? We don’t make laws to benefit humanity that’s not typically how laws work and you know we typically make laws really yeah it is but, well but? No, we don’t for instance? We don’t have laws around the types of foods you can eat, we don’t know the laws that make it so, well like well again that that is partly to benefit humanity? We want to extend? Personal freedoms as much as panse yeah so exactly so what we’re really looking to do with leat with with legislation we typically looking to protect liberty is typically the function right we’re looking to protect when I looking to make a people healthier or better or to live you but why? Do you think you should have the liberty to torture and kill animals well because the argument hasn’t been made that animals are worthy of any kind of protection right well so like why is it okay to hack-attack a, tree, into two but it’s not okay to hack the head off bear right there as, well because bears are sentient beings that can experience pain suffering they have a similar emotional range to us like we can understand that they’re even though they, don’t have the cognitive capacity that we do we can understand that you know they’re a living thing on this earth that is similar enough to us where they should be? Granted some sort of protection or given some sort of respect yeah so, iii can argue or I can understand it but, we’re coming back to the the central point again right we’re like why does the sentence of an animal why do these biological processes entitle them to the same rights as people what is the reason I i think? We kind of keep running back into this as kind of a central point of dislike the weird like the weird thing with you is you don’t seem to put any sort of value on life or well-being at all like you you just flat up said yeah let’s just it’s totally fine to massacre a tribe of people if they can’t reciprocate rights or you know agreed with social contract like you could do that exact same thing and justify the holocaust really but you can’t right we already went over, well you can what what’s your right, well what is your argument let’s say you are gay? Well what’s that like, well in the fine a particular example if you’re a nazi what’s your argument for treating jews as? Less than human like what is your rationalization there for that or your rationale for that time, well you said a social contract is essentially what we should I don’t even see how a social contract makes like really the fundamental problem here is a social contract. Doesn’t actually make anything moral sure I can appear that used to not have a social contract with anyone yeah but if you choose to not have a social contract or someone that they could choose the same and then here’s what will kill you, well is that wrong?

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Now someone else is rejecting the the social contract no of course not I’m I’m very much for property rights when I’m shooting a fuckin kid, oh man, ok? So what the nazis, did wasn’t wrong they can, choose to just reject the social contract well when you say wrong when we’re talking right or wrong I think we’re usually talking in regards to our society now if you’re asking? Me if they can do it I mean did the nazis reject the social contract in kilojoules, well yeah sure I mean wrong like was the holocaust wrong in my eye you’re what you’re asking me is you’re saying that like, okay? Well if these people reject your morality aren’t they immoral in your morality? Well yeah of course but they’ve already rejected my morality so what does it matter like I mean I think that the nazis are wrong but are you asking me if they have the ability to reject my morality of course they do and I would say the same for slave owners or people to think that women are? Subhuman compared to men like yeah I mean they you know the nazis rejected you know what I would consider my personal morality and they rejected the morality of a lot of people I mean I guess it’s within their rights to do so anybody can, do whatever they want but I’m not going to sit here and say well they’re moral because they rejected my morality? This what I’m getting from you is basically your it’s as if you’re trying to say like morals don’t exist? The only thing that matters is social contract whether or not you can create a social contract with other people which allows you to? Like basically protect your own self yep pretty steadily yeah I don’t I don’t argue or anything yeah, okay? I don’t have you for any kind, of stuff follicles totally like the holocaust, wasn’t wrong wasn’t right or wrong it’s just that it happened so under my particular morality for under my social conduct morality I would argue that it was wrong anytime you exit the social contract I would assign it in more why’d I why is exiting a social contract run? Because now you’re on a level that’s very different than me because you, don’t really say, why, because you? Don’t respect my personal autonomy anymore you, don’t respect my right to life am I right, well why? Do I have to you like, well you, don’t but then I’m not going to respect yours, okay so? Okay so then you agree that causing unnecessary suffering and death is wrong because this doesn’t have anything to do with a social contract anymore like you’re just saying it’s wrong to cause unnecessary suffering and death to humans yeah that’s part of my social contract well no I i don’t have to respect that social contract so I could just say but if you don’t kill if you don’t respect my social contract and that means that I no longer respect you as a human so you’re I from that yeah so there’s no such like you keep going like you keep going back and forth you said that it’s wrong to break a social contract, well why is it wrong to break a social contract well I you’re asking me like you’re asking me from like a from a meta position a? Person has morality a and there’s morality b could an outside hypothetical observer would he say that it’s wrong to move from morality aid to be no I mean if you want to from us from it from an ultimate frame of reference that guy could say that, okay? Well he moved from a to b that’s fine but now a person who believes in morality a like I do if I see you move from my morality to something different then I would say that’s wrong but it but it depends on like I guess the observer that you’re talking about like destiny like the reason, we even have social contracts in the first place pain and suffering even if it’s even just for our own benefit it’s to reduce pain and suffering of human so yeah a few well why does that only matter for humans like, we we create social contracts to benefit each other? But you have to agree fundamentally that suffering and death is a bad thing like for the most part as long or healing necessary yeah for humans for sure well why does that only apply to humans because why would it apply to anything else well like you already agree like why? Did okay so why does human life matter at all because I’m human and in order for my life to matter unless unless you have an argument for why you are extra special like for like racist people will make the argument that, oh? Sorry saying like I’m not saying humans are extra special I’m saying like why does any life matter you know that well that’s what I’m saying I said because? For me to believe that my life is important right I have to believe that other lives are important too because I don’t think that I’m intrinsically different than any other human being right right so that so my respect for human comes out of the fact that I am a human and if I want my life to be respected as a human I have to respect other humans rights to life like that has to be unless I think I’m a god-like figure or somehow special from every other human right like again you’re but like the social contract isn’t coming I don’t see how the social contract is coming before morality like you’re basically like you have to start off with a position that at least your life matters for some reason it is immoral to kill you or cause your suffering for no justifiable reason so a social contract is a good way to you develop some sort of moral standard at least within the own human population but again, you’re starting from a standpoint that like sentient life matters like sentient beings, well will to live their lives matter and unnecessary suffering is a bad thing so iii don’t know how you can just say animal suffering doesn’t matter because I’m human sure so it makes ur sense so like my fundamental axioms would be that my life matters I guess which I think most people agree on that I think therefore I am right I know i? Exist and I know that my life matters right and then from there I know that there are other humans that are similar to me and because I want to exist right if that’s like my fundamental axiom is that I want to exist and I don’t want other people to fuck with my existence it’s like my fundamental belief right now from that point of view I want to maximize whatever I can to maintain that belief I want to exist and I want other people to fuck with me and for me I think that the most rational way of doing that is to demand for others the same right so you would demand for yourself that’s where that’s where the social contract comes from right now I was? Faced with a bear or a deer or a or an apparently id or whatever I don’t know anything else a lion a tiger that would want to eat me right it doesn’t matter what part of the social contract or how I engage with him or whatever that dude is gonna fuckin eat me if he’s hungry or? If I seem threatening or whatever right so I don’t really give a fuck what he thinks what an animal thinks about that because they’re not capable of engaging in me with a social contract in this way I’m not a tiger I’m not concerned with the existence of tigers I’m a human that’s what I am I’m concerned with the existence of other humans because I know they could be concerned with my existence this is how my moral code kind of works so you’re basically saying you don’t give a shit about anyone else other than yourself and the only reason you create a more like a social contract with people is just to save your own ass correct but I think I can assign them every other person to so that they can all be self-interested in much the same way yeah right um I think the majority of people watching might? Find that a bit fucked up yeah for carrots cuz I don’t think that’s how people actually form morals I think you might actually have a psychological problem, okay? I’m not saying that as an insult, no I listen dude I totally % agree with you right but but I would also say to the same and I can and I would say for you as? Well like if you’re a meat-eater and you’re and you feel uncomfortable with everything I’m saying which I imagine there and I’m sure you would agree there are probably a lot about theater that they hear what I’m saying that are really uncomfortable what I’m saying like? Maybe you should re-examine your beliefs because you either have to jump on board with what I’m saying I believe and that you don’t give a fuck if a dog or a cat gets killed or you need to re-examine what you think about animals and maybe you should become a vegan as, well like I mean that would be my argument okay destiny um so again like from my position like I’m still convinced that you you, don’t just create a social contract just to save your own ass like okay maybe that’s how you see things but I don’t think that’s how the human civilization has created social contracts I think, we? Understand that life is valuable at least certain. life like sentient life that can experience pain and suffering and we created social contracts to? At least uh help our own species but, we’re starting from we’re starting from the point where we we recognize that life doesn’t matter? And suffering like reducing suffering is important so well for reducing human suffering just climb right right right so do you think it is morally justified for like an advanced alien species to just come down and wipe out humanity so thank you but again really good this is a really good question right and this is one that I’ve actually wrestled with on stream before right so my argument would be so your argument you’re essentially saying aliens come down to earth but? We’ll argue the aliens or perfect law decisions if you can out argue them then they let you? Exist right the alien says to you we are sufficiently advanced compared to you you are nothing to us you guys have deemed it appropriate to kill animals on your planet because they’re nothing, cuz you’re their lesser to you so what argument do you have against us to stop us from killing you right is essentially your question essentially yeah and if that’s a really really really good question it’s one of like the best ones I found to kind of stop the meat-eating stuff my answer to them my response to them would be assuming that these are perfect law decisions right my argument to the aliens would, be, we are sufficiently advanced such that we can intellectually? Recognize your right to exist much the same way that you could do the same to us if you want to destroy us you can but if we play this recursively if a sufficiently advanced alien civilization stumbles upon you guys what arguments will you have to avoid annihilation from them if you destroy again this is just the golden rule yeah of course yeah and because we’re capable of reciprocating the golden rule I would hope that the aliens would respect our right it really doesn’t have anything to do with reciprocation I really what the golden rule is reciprocation right no it isn’t no it literally isn’t wait treat others if you want to be treated reciprocation don’t treat someone else the way you, wouldn’t want to be treated that has nothing to do with reciprocation, oh?

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I thought I oh I’m sorry I always kind of interpreted about a specification know like, don’t like don’t do something to someone that you wouldn’t want done to yourself that really has nothing to do with reciprocation so again like you you like fuck like you fundamentally understand that you’re that sentient life is valuable and that like suffering does matter like it’s a good thing to reduce suffering it’s a good thing to reduce that but wait so and you believe in a golden rule yeah like, don’t so let’s say that somebody wanted to sleep at your house for the night and this person was a known murderer who is also a ku klux klansmen and enoch said you okay? This is different like this is a different situation you do have to look out for your own interest yeah? No, no no there so you have to follow the golden rule but only if the other person is following the golden rule it’s reciprocated right, well no you you do have to protect, yourself like you don’t follow the golden rule to the point where it’s going to lead to your death yeah but if you’re following the golden rule with somebody else that’s following the golden rule that’s reciprocating it then you’re generally okay right that’s usually how the golden rule works I would imagine okay, well I wouldn’t steal someone’s wallet even even if I knew the guy? Was a thief I just think it’s wrong to just steal from someone like people don’t have to reciprocate the same ideas for it to be immoral for you to do something to them for sure I agree with that but but but again, you’re typically not being that way because you, don’t want other people to be that way at all like that like I don’t understand how you can agree that it’s wrong for an alien civilization to just wipe out all of humanity but you don’t agree that it isn’t wrong you don’t agree that it’s wrong to for us to just torture and kill animals yes so my argument would be humans can recognize and respect to the existence of other aliens well because that’s the central point on whether the aliens on whether they should I said? Nothing like that has nothing that really, doesn’t have anything to do with morals well but what is suffering of animals the biological processes have to do with morals? Well like again it’s because, we can we have empathy and we can understand that? We wouldn’t want to suffer so why? Would you do that to animal yeah but if you’re saying that my reciprocation doesn’t matter why? Does that matter I think you’re trying to suggest that morals are subjective and they therefore don’t exist so you can do whatever the fuck you want is that basically what you’re trying to say in terms of like yeah I’m? Pretty relativistic in regards to how my morals work sure as long as whatever, well, well we already established? That it’s wrong to needlessly cause the suffering and death of other beings whether there’s a social contract well like I don’t even be able for me I don’t understand why it would matter that there’s a social contract like we understand that, we wouldn’t want to feel suffering and like suffering? I wouldn’t want to die so whether or not you’ve established a social contract well because are not? Wanting to die is all part of the social contract if I for instance let’s say I walk into another person’s house and I do want to steal their shit I’ve got a gun I walk in right what when I do that I’ve? Accepted the possibility that this person will kill me like that’s part of what’s going on if I break into somebody’s house and almost steal their shit I’m accepting the possibility that this guy wakes up and kills me like that’s part. of that deal right you’re not like that I don’t understand how that has any relation to needlessly killing some like an animal well I i guess I’m talking about like if you make the decision to leave the social contract right you accept that I’m not saying that like it’s morally bad to kill always because just killing is bad I think that part of that is wrapped up in the social contract but but the killing will become acceptable if you leave it like these not like hard moral absolutes or whatever right there are times where we kill people in self-defense or? I guess in war if that’s morally justifiable or not that’s a whole other thing um wait let me think um this doesn’t like this argument still doesn’t make any sense to me because you’re the one who’s like you’re the antagonist in a situation where you’re killing animals like i, also used the like uncontacted tribe example so like there is actually an uncontacted really primitive tribe living on a small island if anyone comes near there they actually shoot arrows like what who cares? If they can’t establish a, social contract the thing is you’re going over there and needlessly fucking killing them and wiping them out you keep saying, we need lessly you keep saying needlessly like it’s that kind of moral argument but appealing but a lot of what we do is nebulous right like what like the type of shirt you’re wearing the color of your chair that you’re going to vacuum no, no, no, no you’re trying to treat like really wiping out an entire population of people is just as trivial as me picking a red chair if sit on if it’s not then you have to provide the reason why it’s not like again like that you’re trying to appeal to emotion where you something, oh? Well it’s obviously wrong to wipe out a civilization of people that can’t go away but then I think that’s like well why other than because it’s wrong? I’m not just saying because it’s wrong we’ve already established that it’s wrong to needlessly kill other human beings I don’t think a social contract well but but anything to do but there was more loaded in that when you said it’s wrong to need to kill other human beings? Right, well sure but that’s moley he, was well thought of that needlessly is if they’re if they? Follow the social contract right that’s where the needless comes from like if somebody’s threatening your right to life or somebody to have respect your right to lilan then then you don’t you, don’t share that same respect with them that’s fine if they would kill me given the opportunity to, well I’ll kill them but but the thing is like okay, look at it from this like excel I don’t even need to do this, okay so why is it justified to go over to a tiny small island that you don’t need to go to have literally no benefit to you taking this tiny small island why would you just mask her a whole bunch of people like why is that morally justified it’s so it’s not it would be morally neutral morally neutral you mascar a whole group of people correct okay if they’re not capable of respecting social contract if you were to show up on this island right you make it sound like really bad but say you flow it over from this island and you and you go there and in your your boat capsized or some shit and you and your family wither and these people found you and they strung you up and they skinned you alive and then they grilled you, over fire and they tortured you and then they ate you and consumed your bodies and your corpses everything right like I mean I could phrase this in such a way that like well what would keep me from sending people to this island to you know exterminate this group of people right and now? Well now it doesn’t sound quite as bad you know as opposed to like the peaceful nomadic people that just wander and you happen to go there with machine guns and you go full avatar on the island and blow it all up you know I mean you can make it sound bad but when, we’re talking about like more arguments like you’re talking about a group of people that are incapable of respecting my right to life so no I have, no arguments to respect their right to life so everything is in regards to them as morally neutral um yet this is a very strange argument like what’s strange to me is you’re valuing social contract above life itself yeah of course yeah but we all do even you? Do right if a human is coming into your house with a gun to murder you you don’t value his life you don’t give a fuck about his life right you’ll know that that’s not that’s not valuing social contract above life itself that’s just me valuing my life about, his life like you’re literally saying social contract is more valuable than life itself so that gives you the right to massacre an entire population of people, well it’s so like in terms of how rights are doled out right you look to government to limit rights so you assume that you can unless there’s a? Law that tells you you can’t so just because I’m saying you can do something doesn’t mean I’m saying it’s morally righteous to do something you can go outside and tear up, every piece of grass or kill all the squirrels and your back go to be one like you can do that I’m not saying that it’s morally righteous – I’m just not saying it’s morally incorrect to do so either okay, so okay, we talked about? Like you like just to be clear you, did say it’s basically morally neutral to skin like torture an animal to death like skin it alive and kill it brian correct yeah you’ve considered morally neutral yes okay so would it, also be morally neutral to go, over to that island where the indigenous people live would it be morally neutral to tie them all up and like rape them all to death even like the little children yeah would have to be yes? I’ll mean we’re assuming in this example that this is a group of people that could never ever ever borrow to respect social contract right so so right when you say children I kind of wondered you mean like people that could be like integrated into society that could grow to be part of like because if that was the case then obviously no that would be important but if this is like a group of beings that were for some reason incapable ever respecting social contract or other people’s right to live then yeah of course here you would have to say yeah okay uh! that’s some crazy shit huh! all right um I don’t know I hey jasmine how long the movie we been doing this what how long have, we been doing the stream okay, um I don’t think there’s really much else to cover um yeah like it so yeah so for my perspective um like

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I guess we’ll just you know. make our final statement like from my perspective the reason why I i find your perspective wrong is because you’re placing ultimate value on social contract rather than life itself and the overall well-being of heat like humans and like other animals on the planet I think like life itself and overall well-being is worth more than social contract so I for that reason I think it is wrong to needlessly cause suffering and debt like just because you don’t have a social contract there I don’t think that like makes it morally justifiable or morally neutral to needlessly kind of suffering and death just because the social contract is there I don’t I think social contract makes life valuable can I ask you a question I’m just kind of curious sure so let’s say and maybe I’m sure you’ve heard this one before but like let’s say that there’s a train and it’s headed down a track and it’s going to run over you know ten people and you have the ability to push somebody in front of that train that would stop the train from running, over those ten people so it’s basically a one light versus ten would you push the person to do it uh yeah probably would okay, um yeah, okay then you’re morally consistent I guess so my answer to that would be no because I would be placing somebody in harm’s way that shouldn’t be placed in somebody’s terms all right shouldn’t we play sometimes way? To take that a couple steps further then let’s say that somebody came up to you and they said hey I’m a stranger person on the street otherwise aside from this one condition I’m a very healthy person I need one kidney you can probably live the rest of your life pretty, healthily with only a single kidney, would you give me one kidney please so that I could continue to live there basically inconveniencing yourself with the surgery so that another person could live would you always accept this deal uh no not, always like if it was my wife sure but if it was some stranger, no why if it was if you knew that they, were that it’s not like a murder or somebody, was going to die of hiv economicaly well why would you not accept that? Well because I just place my own? Well-being and the value of my life above a perfect stranger even though there is no threat of you dying or van driver absolutely, well there would be a threat of me dying with kidney disease but let’s say even if it were like we had really great medical technology and there’s no chance of me dying I still, wouldn’t do it gotcha and I know that strange to me that you would make like I don’t see that. I don’t see that as like consistent like inconsistent for my views because I don’t have this like all-or-nothing kind of mentality that you do like I take context into consideration and yeah like I don’t value everyone’s life is equal like my wife is more valuable and some random person on the street sure so then here’s an even more extreme question I’m pretty sure you don the answer to let’s say that a doctor had the opportunity to kill you to give your organs to a number of other people to save them I’m guessing you probably wouldn’t be okay with that? Yeah why, would you be okay with pushing one person in front of a train to save ten people but you? Wouldn’t be okay with a doctor killing you to save ten other people with your organs? Well I guess basically because it would end up killing me but it would be easier to make that decision if I pushed like another person in front of the train gotcha so that kind misses he bothers me so you would be okay so in that same example you would be okay pushing one person in front of a? Train to save ten but if somebody pushed you in front of a train to save ten you, wouldn’t be okay with that outcome? It’s a little like I don’t know if these sort of scenarios are a little too abstract, well I don’t think they’re that abstract they see these are interesting I like the abstract us with these scenarios because they let you really like fundamentally analyze your kind of system of values right so this is where somebody like this is where I kind of have a benefit because everything that I do is very rigidly logically deduce so I can give you an absolute answer but if you make these decisions more emotionally I think it could be a lot harder to arrive at like a conclusion that feels good at the end of these kinds of hypothetical problems you know where I like the thing is you’re like when you’re talking about the train scenario? It suggests like a weird split decision you’d have to make like if it’s something to do with harvesting organs it’s I don’t know it’s a bit different like forcing somebody into an operating room and harvesting their organs is a bit different than like making a snap decision to push somebody in in front of the train to like save a bunch of people cheryl I mean we can argue? We can create the most convenient world? Right and we can say that you actually have a number of hours to choose whether or not you want to push the person in front of the train right to make me you to make the analogy still be relevant, okay? All right um this is where like so like for my social contract I will say that when I would then somebody say anything now so you? Wouldn’t know then I’d say if yeah like I guess if it’s if it’s a similar situation where I have time to consider then, no uh-huh so and I would agree with you right I wouldn’t want to be pushed in front of a train to save ten people maybe I would make that decision on my own I don’t? Know maybe I would maybe but it’s pretty big I’m not going to stay here in lyon tell you I would do it I think that would be like a very heroic thing to do but I definitely wouldn’t want anybody else making that decision for me and I wouldn’t make that decision for another person but the interesting thing is that earlier in your arguments you always begun like you, don’t care about what the conclusions are you, don’t care about what the end results are earlier I an earlier I told you that well no I don’t I care more about the morality of the particular decision and here it kind of sounds like that’s what you’re saying for the training you, don’t really care about the outcome we’re interested more in the morality of this particular decision then whether or not ten people live or one person lives right well I’m saying outcome should be considered? Yeah but like in this particular scenario you’re saying that the outcome isn’t really relevant, you’re looking at the morality of pushing one person in front of a train taking away personal rights to like to create a better well-being for a number of people. I don’t think that’s necessarily a better thing, okay? And I agree with that regardless of regardless of kind of what that particular outcome is I’m looking more at the particular morality of taking away the rights of another person right right right, well like again taking away, someone’s right to eat meat is a hell of a lot different than taking away. someone’s right to live like like you’re literally talking about harvesting harvesting somebody’s organs like I’m just saying like don’t eat like the ones a lot more fucking reasonable yeah but, we’re not talking about what is reasonable right like? We could make laws that say you have to wear a helmet while driving and then maybe that’s actually safer than not but we don’t have that law because you have to justify the existence of the law rather than just say why not right that’s not a good reason to make any particular thing something that’s legally binding or even something morally ethically by like why not right you just make the same argument masturbation right anybody can live without masturbating so why why do it like you should be compelled not to do it well no you have to make an argument not to do another one well again like like this is something I don’t think, we’re ever going to create a tie we’re and like you’re basically saying like life itself, doesn’t even really, matter suffering, doesn’t even really, matter what like, oh lovely non-human suckering and non-human life right right like like, oh you’re, well even human life you’re you’re basically saying it doesn’t matter oh sure wonka has no social contract correct yeah yeah, yeah so like that’s something, we’re just not gonna agree on at least not now so um I guess I’ll just end the discussion here thanks a lot destiny a link your channel after this video goes up and thank you to everyone who donated in the super shat yeah this, was a really interesting discussion I don’t like I think most people are saying I won but I think these are like my fans for the most part yeah it’s not good and it’s not like a winner losing thing like I considered a really entry discussion to the the hardest part on mine is like whether or not sentience should be respected and that might be something that I changed my mind on in the future I fully admit that it’s definitely possibly code so I really appreciated a special okay alright thanks a lot and thank you to everyone who donated donated in the superboy okay, well I’m going to stay on the stream and I’m gonna cut through behind a super champs yeah sure so I’m yeah thanks lot I appreciate the conversation alright see, ya,

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Vegan Gains post debate:

Alright um for some reason I don’t know for some reason I oh here it goes okay like for some reason I can’t get into my dashboard like to actually is very strange okay um are you going to email me the super chance um yeah that like I I don’t think it’s as easy to what like honestly um I think it’s just something that we’re going to disagree on but I still think I’m right obviously it’s just that we can’t agree upon this um like the fundamental problem he’s making is he’s valuing social contract above life itself which is very strange okay um bright guys movies donated euros thank you very much you’re my favorite vegan dick fuck all careness and Islamists thank you very much for the donations bright guys movies Babur love donated DKK thank you very much I hope he realizes he sounds like a lunatic sometimes keep it up uh thank you very much Bob real of yeah he he does sound kind of insane and he worried me like people call me a sociopath some of the stuff he was saying like he’s perfectly fine with skinning animals alive just very strange Andrew Kerry just donated one pound thank you very much Andrew curry or Kerry yeah Andrew Kerry um Philippe it’s very hard to keep up with these um Philippe salvo donated sec thank you very much hey Skype convo with me about nutrition I’ll pay um if you sign up to my patreon that’s the easiest way to get in to contact me contact with me um yet and just hop into my discord server and we can talk all you want um it’s $ per month like if you’re not interested in you know paying $ a month to keep going into my discord that’s fine but I can talk with you in discord if you just donate on patreon I that’s fine um Eric Soto just donated $ thank you very much Eric um Fritz zero X zero zero donated $ someone should consist consider skinning Destiny alive um that’s the thing like if you’re going to rely on social contract like as a basis for morality like you can’t really do that because then either anything can be considered moral or nothing’s moral so skinning him alive like like it’s nothing like everything just becomes morally neutral like you have to start from a standpoint that certain things are not moral and then you form social contracts around that understanding like he’s talking as if social contracts are what create morals so he like he’s got it backwards it’s a very strange way of thinking um Austin just donated $ Thank You Austin I’m getting the feeling that you’re either not being totally genuine with what you’re saying or you may be a sociopath vegan gains four minutes eight seconds uh I don’t know if he like I still have a feeling he’s not being genuine with me I think he was just saying that to be as logically consistent as possible but who knows like he might be a sociopath he might have like an antisocial personality disorder Orion just donated $ thank you very much Orion for all of your dedication and hard work treat yourself well sent you self treatment message therapy book on Facebook thank you very much Orion um I’ll check that out uh timing just donated seven dollars and cents can you make a weekly meal prep vid uh sure like I like I do have what I eat in a day videos but I do want to talk about like how to prepare vegan meals and stuff um like I normally just have the what I eat in a days but I’ll I’ll probably start making some videos about how to prepare vegan meals why I eat certain macro nutrient ratio and stuff like that thank you very much for the donation timing Toby Wong just donated ten pounds thank you very much he said that plants not being sentient wasn’t justification for setting field ablaze implying that it’s not a neutral act he done goofed right from the start well I don’t think he actually liked he did recognize that setting a forest ablaze causes a whole bunch of issues so um yet like he doesn’t write he doesn’t think plant sentience like setting forth ablaze causes a lot of problems like you know if you set forest ablaze it causes huge environmental issues which eventually impacts humans but his viewpoint was very strange I’ve never encountered someone like that before extreme comments nine donated two dollars what’s your opinion on the ask yourself and og knees in situation um I don’t know I think they’re both being a little petty I think og knees in a little more than Isaac and he just recently made a very strange video where he attempted to debunk the name the trait argument and I think he did that just to just out of spite I don’t think he actually believed what he said in that video so I don’t think Oh G Neeson is being terribly honest um let’s see uh Taryn brace just donated two pounds from a scale of ho to hot how hot I your girlfriend yes that is my answer yes thank you for the donation Taryn brace um knuck the whale man donated ten PLN Oh : like I guess polish currency does destiny death does destiny have sex logically logical erection yeah again you like it’s as if he he’s got the whole ethics thing totally backwards as if social contract is what creates morals like no we have a moral understanding that’s essentially based on empathy and that’s how we create social contracts like I do think morals are based on logic but empathy and emotions are logical systems somewhat so like he still has it backwards nobody donated NOK bicep shot please okay well that’s bicep shot is definitely worth NOK I think all right um vandal just donated $ thank you very much I have an interesting thought if we grant if we grant that life is inherently valuable using your system then why don’t we prevent wolves from attacking deers like the reason that is is because wolves also have a right to life and they need to eat deer to survive and if there weren’t any wolves that would totally disrupt the ecosystem and then neither deer nor wolves could exist like you can’t just say just because an animal kills another animal therefore it doesn’t deserve right to life things are a bit more complicated than that but we can agree that life is at least valuable enough that we shouldn’t skin animals alive for no fucking reason um shameless types donated $ I love this debate richard has his hands full like it was interesting like I’ve never encountered somebody who deployed that sort of argument before so it was an interesting debate um I think I made I think I made a pretty good argument like I’d still say I won but you know it’s definitely an interesting discussion to have um Elin kore kore Jew Ghana Ghana v”e Alana core juga Nava donated rubles I think that’s rubles or are you be thank you very much Alana she says I love your videos Thank You Alana for the big donation Donald Trump donated $ I don’t think this is the real Donald Trump I don’t think he he likes vegans too much a tremendous you show him Richard I love how you grab logic by pussy tremendous indeed

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okay maybe that is the real Donald Trump thank you for donating $ Donald Trump Rolling Rock donated $ the social contract answers to fairness emotion um yeah like again we create social contracts because we understand that it is moral to be fair to one another like we have the golden rule we understand that we don’t want to do something to someone else that we wouldn’t want to have done to us and so we create social contracts it doesn’t happen the other way around Luke hands donated $ fan of both destiny and vegan gains very interesting talk uh yeah like cool I mean I’m like I do appreciate Destiny’s honesty I think he’s like I wouldn’t say stupid at all I’m like I disagree with what he says I think he’s a fairly intelligent person but like he he does have his argument a little backwards and but I do really do appreciate his honesty like barring roaming millennial no bullshit like they’re all incredibly dishonest and even though what he said was like crazy to me I do appreciate that he was being honest Stefon are donated five euros Richard don’t support ask yourself anymore he’s a pussy that can’t can’t take criticism well um like he’s a friend of mine uh like yeah I that’d be really friggin awkward if I just didn’t support him anymore but like you know people get into drama online and he got into a thing with Oh Jamie’s and I don’t really care like it doesn’t mean I can’t be friends with a guy uh the number last donated two dollars he says niggers I agree niggers uh Simone Tellez Tellez ginn yes Simon tell tellus skin I did my best he donated rubles are you bi I think that’s rubles newborns can’t follow social contract well exactly like you get issues with that too I am sure his argument would be well a newborn baby could eventually follow social contract so therefore you have to like it’s immoral to kill newborns but like again like his argument is backwards like the reason why he thinks it’s wrong to kill newborns is because of things like the Golden Rule like he values life itself first and foremost and then he creates you know social contract to protect life or at least you know human life um nor vegan just donated NOK can you sing the beef outro before you go um sure I’ll do that uh I guess I’ll just get through a few more comments and I’ll sing the beef outro the number last donated $ dude it’s over you lost I don’t think I lost I think I explained my point pretty clearly and ok like if if you think that it’s totally morally justified to a skin and animal skin and animal alive and let it suffer to death then I think you have problems Jared Cox donated $ yeah but my enzymes my enzymes uh yeah like I mean at least destiny didn’t go with the whole enzyme argument we did get into a little bit of a debate about like nutrition and human evolution but that wasn’t really the focus of the debate like at least it wasn’t just making making up total bull crap like roaming millennial um extreme comments donated $ don’t be a waste man vegan gains come on come back to scarves your dog misses you and so do all the Muslims all so what’s your favorite vegan restaurant in Toronto um my favorite vegan restaurant would probably still be at Al Vittal um what what’s called vital life vegan went away and I eat Olivette al took over it’s basically the same food it’s like West Indian food I think that’s still my favorite restaurant the knowing guy donated $ please crush sir sick the social inequality crusader he made a dumb anti-vegan video video against mike the anti vegan love these debates keep it up i’ll definitely check it up sir sick social inequality crusader i’ll definitely check out that video um Mike week my quick it’s either my quicker Mike week he donated SEK but if the aliens didn’t understand us then what can they kill us well exactly um this is why morals exist outside of social contracts like you can’t just say well if there’s no social contract everything’s morally neutral so like morals essentially don’t exist that’s not how it works like that’s why it’s total nonsense to say social contracts create morals no morals create social contracts Corbin Claypool donated $ I used to get shaky slash lightheaded slash Spacey after eating carbs and I tried low carb etc turns out I had hypoglycemia blood blood sugar issues and a vegan diet completely got rid of it paleo helped initially but made worse over time yet vegan diets are extremely good for glycemic control if you’re eating a lot of saturated fat and cholesterol eventually you’ll get like hyperinsulinemia and you’ll get blood sugar issues so yeah it like especially if you’re genetically sensitive to that sort of thing a vegan diet can really help Toby Wong donated pounds he wouldn’t like a stabbing his one animal on the premise that there’s a contract that he wouldn’t stab ours but we have love for all animals that he doesn’t respect when he eats meat so why should we not stab his cat um that is sort of a good point like and again that’s why social contracts don’t create morals like morals create social contracts huh yeah so um I think I will end it here and because somebody asked me to sing the outro I guess we’ll send the sing the outro before I go beef what a relief when will this beef what a relief when will this poisonous product cease this is a fuck I can’t even remember that this is a public service announcement you can believe it or you can doubt it let us begin with the cow the way it gets to your plate and how all right so there you go um thank you everyone for checking out the stream and donating in the super chat and as always keep making those vegan gains

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Destiny post debate:

Holy Shit! Oh my god! I don’t know how!? I don’t know how we navigated that conversation? Boy phew, but I think, I think we’ve, I think we got there, I think we got there in the end, somehow, I don’t know how? But somehow I think we got there in the end.

“I would like to talk to you about your social contract.”

I’m not talking to anybody about this, I feel like I constructed the most like, I had this house of cards that I was sitting on the entire time, I was so worried.

“Destiny totally won that debate? You’re all or nothing argument for a meteor totally confused him, however since meteor is just a space rock, it makes you sound like a sociopath, be yourself”

“I feel like this isn’t the end of the vegan topic”

Well we’re not even done with the autism topic yet dude.

I think this discussion heard a lot because he kept talking about morality unethical assuming that there are moral facts that are inherently so like okay so hey let me finish you some of our moral facts that are herenton I’m jaded right or wrong in morality some kind of ontological thing that we discover instead of creating you clearly don’t believe this but he kept thinking that you do he kept arguing from the sort of morality well you argued purely out of self-interest denying moral realism from the start would have made it clear?

Yeah because he kind of seemed like a moral realist, people seem to hate moral relativism, that Stephan Molineux guy, I don’t know, I think I might be like really morally relativistic, I’m not sure if, but a lot of people seem to like really shit talk moral relativism, so I try to never use that word but um?

“Do you actually believe everything you said or were you playing it up a little?”

No I believe everything I said, I’m never gonna, I’m not going to go full JF and say some shit that I don’t believe for the sake of a fucking debate, that’s fucking retarded, I would never fucking do that, unless I’m telling you, unless I’m telling you like hey, like I’m you know just as a hypothetical but I’m not going to go and misrepresent my views to try to like troll somebody, win an argument, that’s a fucked thing to do like I dunno.

People should talk about moral relativism because you don’t understand it.

Yeah, maybe.

Destiny, you got destroyed in that debate, you could have played that so much better,

If I just kind of like think it out a little bit, like some of the problems is that um. Some of the problems that I have is that um. Well so let’s say that you have another human that’s not capable of recognizing the social contract. Why not just kill the human period, why not, just kill them outright and I would say something along the lines of like, well it’s because they’re human, why does being human matter, speciesism is kind of an axiom that I accept, that I don’t think I ever really defined.

Like why do I care about humans more than like pigs, do I really have a reason for that or is that just like axiomatic? I don’t like axioms, I’ve discovered that axioms are the things that I hate the most, of all the things that have ever existed its axioms, these unjustified assertions and you just have to make it, except it’s true.

I don’t I don’t know but then I guess maybe, we go into social contract memes, what about dogs, you can train a dog to respect humans quite a bit, the dog won’t hurt a human, the dog won’t go into your yard, the dog will respect pretty much everything you can, what right would you have to kill a dog right? If I if a dog with a sufficient level of training is capable of respecting me as a human in every sense of the word, what right would I possibly have to kill a dog, I’m not sure you.

“You can’t not accept something as a presupposition?”

You say that cobain, but one day, when I die and I meet my creator god, I will discover the fundamental truths of the universe, okay?

Well I guess those are just be my new axioms, ok.

“Please stop throwing around the term social contract”

So how is this not like a social contract argument, am I doing this wrong?

“That guy was a literal fucking retard.”

I don’t think he was a retard at all or no I think he was really really really reasonable. I think that we kind of got off on a couple points and I think he kind of he ran around a little bit but I probably did too, but I don’t think he was retarded, I thought he was pretty intelligent.

You guys were all telling me that he was like really fucking crazy and shit and I thought he was perfectly reasonable during that conversation.